Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Document for Review
About grainedness, here is an approach alternative to numbering lines or
paragraphs. Contemplate a browser or browser plugin that carries
numbered rulers along top and bottom: a co-ordinate system for
flawlessly communicating exact location of characters, etc. A variant
would be communicating pointer locations. (01)
This would not obviate the need for procedures like Doug's or the purple
numbering because the co-ordinates do not travel with copying text from
web pages. (02)
But in the meantime ... (03)
Henry (04)
On Thu, 2003-01-09 at 06:42, Henry K van Eyken wrote:
> John.
>
> The stuff you collected about memetics is scary. I didn't realize that
> the advertising/marketing industry had already gone this far.
>
> On a more everyday level, I watched a segment about the life of the
> current Pope John, a man of truly great, world-scale accomplishments.
> And, yet, as I was watching, I kept on wondering how a person of such
> magnificence could hold beliefs that one couldn't get into my own mind
> with a sledgehammer. It strongly reinforced a sense that we share this
> Earth with peoples whose minds are structured so differently in their
> (nearly ?) hardwired aspects. And, yet, we are by and large able to live
> by much common sentiment (on foundations laid during early childhood)
> and much common logic (that, following Piaget, begins taking shape
> during our teens) and, hence, with much mutual understanding.
>
> In the meantime, the weak shall inherit memetics.
>
> Back to work.
>
> Henry
>
>
>
> On Thu, 2003-01-09 at 02:23, John J. Deneen wrote:
> > Re:
> >
> > >I am also
> > >> inclined to believe that commercial interests are (will be) against such
> > >> granularity in pages carrying advertising.
> > >>
> > >> But, then again, your immediate concern is not with web-wide level of
> > >> co-operative work. However, it might be well, to keep such a future
> > >> extension in mind.
> > >
> >
> > Go figure: Ever been a victum of "contagious" products and ideas?
> >
> > It works like this. First, they find out how the mind of their target
> > consumer works by getting at his or her ideas and subconscious thoughts.
> > .... (more info below)
> >
> > - John
> >
> > * Mind virus could give us shopping bug
> >
> > Tracy McVeigh
> > Observer
> >
> > Sunday March 26, 2000
> >
> > "It may prove to be the most successful new selling technique
> > the capitalist world has ever known. The 'mind virus' is the
> > latest form of consumer brainwashing.
> >
> > A mix of psychology and Internet technology, the aim is to
> > create social epidemics by feeding the right information, or
> > virus, into someone's mind. Once implanted, it can make the most
> > useless of gadgets seem essential, the most unnecessary
> > accessory irresistible. It is a money-spinning dream.
> >
> > That is the claim of psychologist Paul Marsden, who believes he
> > can help businesses to trigger shopping crazes for their products."
> > <http://www.brandgenetics.com/archive/Guardian%20Unlimited%20%20Archive%20Search.htm>
> >
> > *
> >
> > Mental epidemics
> >
> > "WANT to change the world? Find out how in Malcolm Gladwell's
> > The Tipping Point. He has "the rules" for engineering social
> > epidemics. You'll see how to turn an idea, product or practice
> > into a virulent mind virus that will sweep through society to
> > become the latest craze, fad or fashion."
> > <http://www.brandgenetics.com/archive/New%20Scientist%20Mental%20epidemics.htm>
> >
> > * Genetically Modified Food and Memetically Modified Ideas
> >
> > ... "In a memetic project somewhat similar to the Human Genome
> > Project, evolutionary psychologists have begun mapping the
> > cognitive hardwired structure of our minds, and the development
> > of associative networks have allowed researchers to map the
> > acquired or softwired structure of those minds.
> >
> > What is interesting about all this is that these advances now
> > allow for the possibility of engineering of ideas so completely
> > adapted to the structure of our minds that when exposed to them,
> > we automatically adopt them, sometimes in spite of ourselves.
> > Memeticists are now taking their first tentative steps in using
> > this knowledge to engineer and modify cultural information; to
> > design fashions, fads, ideas, advertising and brands that fit
> > our minds, like a jigsaw piece in a puzzle. The GM mind virus
> > may have been a product of blind chance that just happened to
> > fit our minds, but the possibility is now with us of consciously
> > and deliberately modifying the structure of information to
> > render it more palatable, and indeed infectious." ...
> >
> > ... "Of course, infecting others with our ideas so that they do
> > what we want is a time-honoured human preoccupation. Compliance
> > professionals, from door to door salespersons to politicians to
> > religious zealots have long used the techniques of social
> > influence to go about their business. But the difference, and it
> > is a big difference, is that memetic engineers are developing a
> > theoretically informed comprehensive understanding of how this
> > process works that turns manipulation into a science." ...
> > <http://www.viralculture.com/gmmm.htm>
> >
> >
> > * Brand Positioning: Meme’s the Word
> >
> > "Using a simple but powerful technique of memetic analysis, it
> > is shown how marketers can unpack how brands are actually
> > positioned in the minds of consumers in terms of their component
> > memes, that is, their ‘genes of meaning’. A demonstration of the
> > validity and reliability of memetic analysis is given through an
> > investigation of how the notion of ‘healthy-living’ is
> > positioned in the minds of consumers. The practical utility of
> > memetic analysis in brand positioning is discussed, and the
> > possibility is raised of using the analytical tool to increase
> > profitability by ‘memetically modifying’ brands with true,
> > unique and compelling consumer values."
> > <http://www.brandgenetics.com/archive/Brand%20Positioning%20-%20Memes%20the%20Word.htm>
> >
> > * Help advertising evolve: Clone consumer thought patterns
> >
> > Harnessing the power of evolution
> >
> > "Of all processes in the universe, evolution is perhaps the most
> > awe-inspiring. What’s more, it is beautifully simple: Descent
> > (continuity) with modification (change) powered by a simple
> > mechanism of natural selection. Evolution and its effects are
> > all around us today; emerging, designing, producing species
> > adapted to their environment, antibodies adapted to infections,
> > and knowledge adapted to the world. Indeed, the very idea of
> > evolution is itself a product of evolution, and has been
> > described by philosopher Daniel Dennett as simply the best idea
> > anyone has ever had. We have found a way of harnessing this
> > process to help design advertising campaigns and brands that are
> > highly adapted to their target markets."
> > <http://www.viralculture.com/admap99.html>
> >
> >
> > Gary Richmond wrote:
> >
> > > Eric and Henry,
> > >
> > > Eric you wrote in response to Henry's comments on your document for
> > > review:
> > >
> > >>Granularity is in there. But I *really* liked your comment about
> > >>advertisers' possible objections!
> > >>
> > > I would also like to reinforce the concluding comment of Henry's,
> > > pointing exactly to what
> > > I would like to comment on after I return to NYC on Monday. Henry wrote:
> > >
> > >>But, then again, your immediate concern is not with web-wide level of
> > >>co-operative work. However, it might be well, to keep such a future
> > >>extension in mind.
> > >>
> > > These kinds of co-operative/collaborative concerns are what Aldo de
> > > Moor and I have maintained
> > > would distinguish a Pragmatic Web from a (mere?) Semantic Web. He and
> > > I discussed this informally at ICCS
> > > 2001 in Palo Alto and, with Mary Keeler, wrote a paper, "Towards a
> > > Pragmatice Web," for ICCS 2002..
> > >
> > > http://infolab.kub.nl/people/ademoor/papers/iccs02.pdf
> > >
> > > For a brief treatment of the theme of a Pragmatic Web, see this
> > > article (to which Aldo recently directed
> > > me) by Munidar P. Singh, Editor in Chief of IEEE Internet Computing.
> > >
> > >http://www.csc.ncsu.edu/faculty/mpsingh/papers/columns/bi-6-3-02.pdf
> > >
> > > More when I return.
> > >
> > > Gary
> > >
> > > PS Eric, thank you for your kind words regarding my loss. Tomorrow
> > > begins a long, sad car trip
> > > to Greenville, SC.
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Eric.
> > >>>
> > >>>Glad you took it well. I was a bit in a blue mood when I wrote my
> > >>>response. So much to be done, so little time left for doing it.
> > >>>
> > >>>At any rate, a major item in your original post (and in your posts way
> > >>>back during the days of the colloquium) is granularity. Granularity in
> > >>>all web pages extant is very much desired. I believe that
> > >>>paragraph-level granularity is a good, practical goal. I am also
> > >>>inclined to believe that commercial interests are (will be) against such
> > >>>granularity in pages carrying advertising.
> > >>>
> > >>>But, then again, your immediate concern is not with web-wide level of
> > >>>co-operative work. However, it might be well, to keep such a future
> > >>>extension in mind.
> > >>>
> > >>>Henry
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 16:19, Eric Armstrong wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Hey, Henry.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Thanks for the post. I'm trying to get at basic infrastructure questions,
> > >>>>though, rather than large design concerns. I got caught up in the vision
> > >>>>myself, and list moved towards big-picture things.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>But mostly I'm trying to enumerate the low-level infrastructure issues
> > >>>>that emerge when the rubber hits the road, and someone tries to code
> > >>>>something.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Actually, one of the things I should have put on that list is time
> > >>>>synchronization. When updates are happening simultaneously at remote
> > >>>>locations, and the results are shared, "which happened first" becomes important.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>(Note to Self: Examine the bread crumbs in the design document for other
> > >>>>low level issues.)
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Henry K van Eyken wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>Eric.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>You are talking here about stuff dear to my heart, but it is so complex
> > >>>>>I cannot just immediately respond in a satisfactory way - especially
> > >>>>>because I am overloaded and my mind is getting slower while my body is
> > >>>>>screaming to get me away from my desk.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>I would want to tick off the points you raise in a media/educational
> > >>>>>setting, which is something I would want Fleabyte to evolve into, but
> > >>>>>which I am not likely to ever see.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Media, typically are close to one-way instruments, from emitter to
> > >>>>>receiver. Oh yes, readers may write letters to editors, but it is the
> > >>>>>editors who select what and how much of each letter received is printed.
> > >>>>>In other words, the readers are under editorial control.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Schools to a little better. Students may ask questions, but even those
> > >>>>>questions may be ignored or rephrased.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Eventually I shall have to produce an article outlining how Fleabyte
> > >>>>>might move from being a webzine toward a collaborative tool. One
> > >>>>>question is: who are doing the collaborating? Another: what is the depth
> > >>>>>of that collaboration, the commitment involved. These questions ought be
> > >>>>>posed in a well-defined context of which I perceive various stages.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Stage one is getting, evaluating, pruning information. We now have
> > >>>>>search engines; we lack evaluation engines. And we haven't got
> > >>>>>well-defined means of making individuals with their limited mental
> > >>>>>capacity feel comfortable with an extensive body of machine-held
> > >>>>>information. To make matters more complex, that body is dynamic with
> > >>>>>information continually added, removed, altered in a way that any person
> > >>>>>who exhibits this kind of a continually changing mind is considered
> > >>>>>fickle, unreliable, undependable, and, hence, even unemployable!
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Stage one would involve a moving feast of involved expertise, knowledge
> > >>>>>workers with a sense of the future and a sense of how directions in
> > >>>>>their field are potentially being deflected by projected developments
> > >>>>>elsewhere. (Think of Doug's "frontier outpost" people as discussed
> > >>>>>during the colloquium!)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>A next stage would involve "spreading the word" to a critical mass of
> > >>>>>decision-makers, which "at bottom" is the electorate, but which need
> > >>>>>depend on either experts trusted by their elected representatives or
> > >>>>>depend on digitally held expertise - a benign auto pilot.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Following that comes planning for action, the problem of alternatives,
> > >>>>>levels of certainty, etc., all of which would lead into appropriate
> > >>>>>action.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>I guess I have gone a little beyond the kind of cooperation people
> > >>>>>normally think of when contemplating tools for collaboration. Really, we
> > >>>>>are here in the domain of dynamic, coevolutionary collaboration. The
> > >>>>>kind of stuff Doug is talking about.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Too bad he has not been getting the needed support.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Too bad, Fleabyte is likely to whither on the vine.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>But, by all means, let's keep on dreaming and scheming.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Henry
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>The production of the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>On Mon, 2003-01-06 at 18:10, Eric Armstrong wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>I've just published a document at my web site, entitled
> > >>>>>>Technical Impediments to Persistent Collaboration Tools.
> > >>>>>>http://www.treelight.com/software/collaboration/Technical_Impediments.html
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>I would appreciate feedback from you guys.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>The document is an attempt to identify the set of necessary
> > >>>>>>infrastructure features that, by their absence, make it
> > >>>>>>difficult or impossible to develop usable collaboration tools.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>Essentially, it's an "infrastructure wish list", and you folks are
> > >>>>>>admirably positioned to tell me what's missing from the list.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
>
> (05)