Re: [ba-unrev-talk] TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED
No, I do not consider this flaming, but I am not a U.S. citizen. This
American is a Canadian. The facts you stated are by and large correct
and of great concern to many thoughtful people in the U.S. In fact, you
echo recent comments by Nelson Mandela when he cautioned Mr. Bush
against attacking Iraq. I also understand that, besides its many ills,
the U.S. is a leading country when it comes to providing humanitarian
aid on an international scale (but I haven't looked at statistics). (02)
Personally I feel that digital augmentation by itself is not enough.
There need also be attention paid to values education and the stiffening
of spine in times of calamity. This is a lesson I learned from
reflecting on the years Holland lived under Nazi occupation. I did
express myself about that in this forum. Also, two years ago, I tried to
get support from a college where I used to teach to organize a getting
together of educators to have an initial look at this issue. I was then
motivated during Engelbart's Colloquium in 2000 when two of his guest
speakers addressed the coming end to the supply of oil on a 40-year
horizon. Running out of non-renewable resources promises some mean
struggles for what is left of an ever scarcer supply. (03)
I failed. I hoped to be able to further address this issue in Fleabyte,
but it appears impossible for me to maintain that publication. Two
people recently came forward ready to volunteer their contribution to
the medium, but even that is not enough to really make a go of it. I am
a bit at wit's end here, but I am trying hard to talk myself into not
giving up hope just yet, criticisms (and even sarcasm) notwithstanding. (04)
Oh boy. (05)
On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 20:26, Teemu Leinonen wrote:
> I am sorry if you consider this flaming, but I am right now very
> disappointed to the US administration, most of the US people and the
> discussion on this mailing list.
> However, I'll try to be analytical and present reasonable arguments.
> Henry K van Eyken wrote:
> > This discussion group and some associated groups are about complex
> > problems people everywhere face and about the potential of digital tools
> > to help them arrive at better decision-making.
> For me it sounds a little technological determinist to study the
> potential of digital tools to achieve better decision making when it
> seems that the majority of US people are lacking such a basic cultural
> features of humanity as respect of human rights, sense of justice,
> compassion and solidarity.
> For me on these topics there is not much to argue about or need of
> decision making. Just a check of the UN declaration of Human Rights is
> enough. And this is not dogmatic argument. In the history of humankind
> and international community some issues just have been already
> considered to be "right". Also the decisions are already made and most
> of the countries are committed on them.
> > I think that what I did - tried to do - is to look at some of the
> > arguments made in favor of it. I have taken exception with some of those
> > arguments ("helping" the people of Iraq; the link with Al Qaeda) and I
> > have added some arguments not publicly used by those with a pro-war
> > stance in the U.S. and the U.K. (that not acting now may cause us to
> > have to cope with a number of rogue regimes simultaneously; the passing
> > of the baton to ever more dangerous people (cf.
> > http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/03/24/son_of_saddam/)
> The lack of sense of justice is expressed when you think that US have
> the right to decide who holds the "batons" in other countries.
> The justification that the regime is not democratically elected and the
> "people" of the foreign country will survive is very weak when there is
> very little evidence that this would not be the case in US, too.
> The lack of democracy in US is demonstrated in the very low turnout of
> voters (less than 50%) based on the need to registered to vote and in
> the very corrupted two party system where both parties receive billions
> of financial assistance from corporations.
> Also, in a country where about 10 000 people are murder every year with
> handguns and half of them are children (please, correct me if I am using
> old statistics), and where the justice is considered to happen with
> death penalty, one could claim with good reason that the people are
> What I am trying to point out is that with exactly the same reasoning
> the Iraq regime could attack to USA and try to "help" and free the
> people of US.
> Still both, the Iraq and the USA are internationally recognized
> countries and members of the United Nations.
> Like stated already earlier in this mailing list, international surveys
> show that people around the world feel that the most dangerous country
> in the world is the US (84%, followed by Iraq 8% and Korea 7%). Have you
> ever thought why is it so?
> - Teemu
> Teemu Leinonen
> Office: + 358 9 756 30 296
> GSM: +358 50 351 6796
> Media Lab, UIAH Helsinki
> Future Learning Environment 3