RE: [unrev-II] Digest Number 102

From: John \ (johnwerneken@netzero.net)
Date: Sun Apr 23 2000 - 15:07:58 PDT

  • Next message: Eric Armstrong: "[unrev-II] Eric's Summary, v.2"

    I would recommend GPLish or BSDish license.

    I would add that I am not a particular fan of open source - the monopolists
    still possess four attributes that I find advantageous: (1) More focus on
    the widest possible end user community /market: it may be dumbed down or
    not-first-choise, but it is accessible, cheap, omnipresent... (2) More
    willingness to design to the existing knowledgre/skills of that broader
    market, and especially some commitment to end-user useability reasearch; (3)
    The ability to throw massive resources at a massive task; and (4)More
    predictability and persistence for the end-user skill set (mine).

    I felt this way about Word Perfect over Samna or Wordstar; Ansa/Borland
    Paradox over dbase; and lately about Microsoft.

    But the growth of Apache and Sendmail has proven to me, beyond doubt, that
    all problems are not massive or at least can be addressed BETTER and QUICKER
    with a step-by-step approach. And I like working that way myself :)

    The open source successes have absolutely required a de jure equality of all
    users and of all contributors, which in turn has made the expression
    "intellectual property" into an oxymoron. The last one in to the community
    has the same opportunity to benefit by using or rewriting the code as the
    first. If the problem is sufficiently interesting and useful, the community
    snowball and then avalanches.

    It is much more likely that the OHS-DKR-CoDIAK Project could become a
    successful open source community, than that it could become the next Oracle,
    Sun, or Microsoft.

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: unrev-II@egroups.com
    > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 5:51 AM
    > To: unrev-II@egroups.com
    > Subject: [unrev-II] Digest Number 102
    >
    >
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    >
    > There are 7 messages in this issue.
    >
    > Topics in this digest:
    >
    > 1. Re: Eric's Summary [edited]
    > From: altintdev@webtv.net
    > 2. Re: Use Case
    > From: altintdev@webtv.net
    > 3. Re: License Model: Preliminary Suggestion
    > From: Paul Fernhout <pdfernhout@kurtz-fernhout.com>
    > 4. Re: License Model: Preliminary Suggestion
    > From: Jon Winters <winters@obscurasite.com>
    > 5. Re: License Model: Preliminary Suggestion
    > From: Jeff Miller <jeffm@dynamite.com.au>
    > 6. Re: Re: WILL SPIRITUAL ROBOTS REPLACE HUMANITY
    > From: "John J. Deneen" <JJDeneen@ricochet.net>
    > 7. Re: Upcoming Agenda Items
    > From: "John J. Deneen" <JJDeneen@ricochet.net>
    >
    >
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    >
    > Message: 1
    > Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 05:40:41 -0700 (PDT)
    > From: altintdev@webtv.net
    > Subject: Re: Eric's Summary [edited]
    >
    > Short Description:
    >
    > This augments human acquisition, management and use of knowledge. The
    > elements are:
    > 1, the Dynamic Knowledge Repository,
    > 2. the Open HyperDocument System,
    > 3. cooperative participants in the knowledge acquisition and processing
    > steps.
    >
    > Together, the DKR and OHS provide a tool to evolve data into knowledge
    > by collaborative interaction in a shared information space.
    >
    > -----
    >
    > I am continuing work on the DKR Specification at
    >
    > www.hypermultimedia.com/DKR/spec.htm
    >
    > Thanks for the comments on the picture and my presentation.
    >
    > Again, the goal of this page is to work on one of the Unfinished
    > Revolution Priorities, Immediate Priorities: Write a DKR Specification.
    > at
    > www.bootstrap.org/alliance/wip/unrev2/current_priorities.html
    >
    > I will immediately incorporate the lic paragraphs suggested by Eric.
    >
    > Thank You All and Best Regards,
    > Joe
    >
    > Alternative Interface Devices.
    > Improve Accessibility and Utility of the WWW...
    >
    >
    >
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    >
    > Message: 2
    > Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 08:58:38 -0700 (PDT)
    > From: altintdev@webtv.net
    > Subject: Re: Use Case
    >
    > In response to Lee's use case example, and his request for other
    > examples:
    >
    > Use Case for Picture
    >
    > Installing and Using the DKR.
    >
    > 1. Name this DKR. Establish the 'namespace' of this DKR. the first set
    > of 8 characters of this DKR name is provided by you, the DKR
    > administrator. The second set of eight characters is supplied by
    > bootstrap alliance. Together they form a string that uniquely identifies
    > this DKR and allows interface with other DKR installations.
    >
    > 2. Define the DKR GOAL.
    > Each DKR Goal, or Problem, is a separate information item. Each entry
    > describes. to the best of the user's current understanding, the purpose
    > of this DKR. An example DKR goal is; "Eliminate World Hunger". Another
    > is: "Identify ways to improve the DKR/OHS interface".
    >
    > You can choose the title for this group of entries, either Goal, or
    > Problem, or whatever you feel will serve to focus the efforts of
    > contributors at the purpose of this DKR,
    >
    > 3. Define the main content structures. For this example, the categories
    > are Level 1: Experience, Level 2: Learning, and Level 3 Knowledge. While
    > there can be any number of content structures, the astract naming in
    > this example assumes that information will progress thru these
    > structures with progressively greater detail and refinement, from
    > Experience to Learning, to Knowledge.
    >
    > For the general case, there can be any number of levels, any number of
    > categories in each level, and any number of items in each category.
    >
    > Implict in the DKR definition is that content is somehow more focused on
    > a goal as the level increases. In this example, Experience is the level
    > at which real life facts and observations are gathered and entered into
    > the repository. These individual data items are deliberated by the
    > participants and organized into cohesive lessons then moved to Learning.
    > Each Learning item proves or supports one Knowledge item, which is
    > linked to a DKR Goal.
    >
    > 4. Load the Knowledge category. Enter a separate informaton item for
    > each descrete fact known about the goal. These should be the few core
    > 'facts' presently 'known' about the goal.
    >
    > 5. Load the Learning category. Each Learning information item is a
    > structured proof or explanation of one Knowledge item. While there may
    > be more than one Learning item for each informaton item, each is linked
    > to and supports only one associated Knowledge item.
    >
    > At this stage the repository is ready for general use. You should be
    > able to view the DKR node map and see the relationships between Goals,
    > Knowledge, and Learning.
    >
    > 6. Load the user base. This consists of the list of users available to
    > contribute.
    >
    > 7. Begin operation by requesting improvement to Knowledge and Learning
    > items in relation to achieving the DKR Goal(s). In this model, the
    > information flow is that opinions and evidence would be submitted to the
    > Experience category for discussion, then as appropriate, integrated into
    > the Learning and Knowledge categories.
    >
    > As new information items are created, you should be able to view the DKR
    > node map and see the relationship of each item with respect to other
    > Goals, Knowledge, Learning, and Experience items.
    >
    > 8. When sufficient Knowledge is available to actually take action to
    > solve the problem, then the action (exhibition of Wisdom in this
    > example) is taken and the results are recorded. These results are
    > entered info the repository as Experience, to be deliberated upon and
    > incorporated into further refinements of Learning and Knowledge items.
    >
    > ---
    >
    > Thanks and Best Regards,
    > Joe D Williams
    >
    > Alternative Interface Devices.
    > Improve Accessibility and Utility of the WWW...
    >
    >
    >
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    >
    > Message: 3
    > Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 16:39:56 -0400
    > From: Paul Fernhout <pdfernhout@kurtz-fernhout.com>
    > Subject: Re: License Model: Preliminary Suggestion
    >
    > "Open Source" (TM) Licenses cannot discriminate among classes of users.
    > The system outlined below would not be considered "open source" or "Open
    > Source"(TM).
    > http://www.opensource.org
    > See specifically "The Open Source Definition":
    > http://www.opensource.org/osd.html
    >
    > Violating these guidelines would likely lose the participation of open
    > source developers.
    > I have been participating in this colloquium on the basis of the
    > promised "open source" nature of the eventual OHS/DKR. I such a license
    > was chosen as is described below, I would not be too happy about that.
    >
    > One can make money from open source software if that is one's goal.
    > You just can't do it by selling the right to use the source or resultant
    > binaries
    > of the core distribution. You can't live in both worlds with a core
    > codebase.
    > Sun is trying it with Java and failing compared to what Java could have
    > been.
    > If Sun had delivered Java with an open source VM code base on day one,
    > there would never have been this hord of over 100 slightly incompatible
    > reimplimented JVMs all over the place -- making reliable Java code
    > delivery to an arbitrary end user the nightmare it is today. That is why
    > Java is considered by many to be dead on the browser for end users, and
    > is now being used mainly in servlets. I use this as a cautionary tale --
    > pick the wrong license and much effort and good intentions may go for
    > nothing and the wheel gets reinvented (badly) anyway.
    >
    > Frankly, I don't think making money from selling stuff to support this
    > effort should be a *primary* goal. If money is an issue, there are
    > foundations and governments with billions of dollars spent annually on
    > efforts less worthwhile then what is proposed here.
    >
    > It would be better for individuals in my opinion interested in making
    > money as part of this effort to either:
    > a) be funded by grants individually or through a non-profit like the
    > Bootstrap Alliance
    > b) be funded by companies as employees (or contractors) and use and
    > improve the DKR as part of their job to increase the companies
    > efficiency (at the home company or on loan a Bootstrap alliance
    > participant),
    > c) provide services as a RedHat/DigitalCreations/VALinux style company
    > (installation, training, hosting, security analysis, customization) to
    > companies to increase the companies efficiency using DKR technology,
    > or (less desirably)
    > d) provide proprietary add ons to the core distribution.
    >
    > Look at the Zope business model for a good example of the possibilities.
    > http://www.zope.org
    > http://www.digicool.com/
    >
    > I think broadly put, the best license choices are:
    > * BSD-ish, (non-viral)
    > or
    > * GPL (viral)
    > Given the pro-business stance of the Bootstrap Alliance, I think BSD-ish
    > is the way to go (or for the more cautious, something like IBM's public
    > license -- but I'd rather BSDish or Python-ish.).
    > Here are some other approved "Open Source" licenses I could probably
    > live with:
    > http://www.opensource.org/licenses/
    > some of which impose other restrictions, none with the commercial clause
    > described below.
    >
    > -Paul Fernhout
    > Kurtz-Fernhout Software
    > =========================================================
    > Developers of custom software and educational simulations
    > Creators of the Garden with Insight(TM) garden simulator
    > http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com
    >
    > Eric Armstrong wrote:
    > >
    > > Goal:
    > > If there is a revenue stream, and the software
    > > plays a part in producing it, we want some.
    > > For everyone else, the software is freely available.
    > >
    > > Who Gets it for Free
    > > --------------------
    > > * an individual
    > > * a partnership
    > > * a non-profit corporation
    > > * an educational institution
    > > * a government agency
    > > * a pre-profit corporation, or a
    > > for-profit corporation that is not currently
    > > profitable
    > > * An individual or group in a corporation that
    > > wants to evaluate the software to see if it
    > > is useful
    > >
    > > Who Pays
    > > --------
    > > * A for-profit corporation that is making a profit,
    > > and who is using the software as part of their
    > > day-to-day operations
    >
    >
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    >
    > Message: 4
    > Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 17:25:31 -0500 (CDT)
    > From: Jon Winters <winters@obscurasite.com>
    > Subject: Re: License Model: Preliminary Suggestion
    >
    >
    > I agree with Paul completely. If we are going to say we are open source
    > then we should actually _be_ open source. The fastest way to drive away
    > talented developers is to say you're open source when you don't really
    > understand what its all about.
    >
    > Thanks!
    > --
    > Jon Winters http://www.obscurasite.com/
    >
    > "Everybody loves the GIMP!"
    > http://www.gimp.org/
    >
    >
    >
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    >
    > Message: 5
    > Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 11:30:14 +1000
    > From: Jeff Miller <jeffm@dynamite.com.au>
    > Subject: Re: License Model: Preliminary Suggestion
    >
    > On Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 04:39:56PM -0400, Paul Fernhout wrote:
    > > I think broadly put, the best license choices are:
    > > * BSD-ish, (non-viral)
    > > or
    > > * GPL (viral)
    >
    > What attributes are people looking for in the license. I think one of the
    > most important is that the software spread and be accepted widely.
    > Especially if we are trying to create a defacto standard and to spread the
    > word about boot strapping techniques and DKR. In that repect I don't think
    > artistic license, ala perl, would suit our needs nor BSD or X style as
    > they make forking easier. GPL while not denying forking makes it more
    > difficult.
    >
    > Jeff.
    >
    >
    >
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    >
    > Message: 6
    > Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 19:04:36 -0700
    > From: "John J. Deneen" <JJDeneen@ricochet.net>
    > Subject: Re: Re: WILL SPIRITUAL ROBOTS REPLACE HUMANITY
    >
    > Ideas to Feed Your Business: Re-Engineering the Future
    > (A response to Bill Joy and the doom-and-gloom technofuturists.)
    > By John Seely Brown and Paul Duguid
    >
    > http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,14013,00.html
    >
    > .... "In the absence of a plan, it's important to ask the right questions:
    > Can nanotechnology fulfill its great potential in tasks ranging from data
    > storage to pollution control, all without spiraling out of control? If the
    > lesson of genetic engineering is any guide, planners would do well to
    > consult and educate the public early on, even though useful nano
    > systems are
    > probably decades away.
    >
    > Worries about robotics appear premature, as well. Internet "bots" that
    > search, communicate and negotiate for their human masters may appear to
    > behave like Homo sapiens, but in fact, bots are often quite inept at
    > functions that humans do well functions that call for judgment,
    > discretion, initiative or tacit understanding. They are good (and useful)
    > for those tasks that humans do poorly. So they are better thought of as
    > complementary systems, not rivals to humanity. Although bots will
    > undoubtedly get better at what they do, such development will not
    > necessarily make them more human." ...
    >
    > .... "Why does the threat of a cunning, replicating robot society look so
    > close from one perspective, yet so distant from another? The
    > difference lies
    > in the well-known tendency of futurologists to count "1, 2, 3 ... a
    > million." That is, once the first step on a path is taken, it's
    > very easy to
    > assume that all subsequent steps are trivial."
    >
    > Eric Armstrong wrote:
    >
    > > Good thoughts, Paul.
    > >
    > > I was struck by the notion that a decentralized web-based DKR would
    > > itself create a very real interdependence.
    > >
    > > Another thought: Since evaluations are central to a knowledge
    > > repository, a world-wide DKR could instantly gather opinions on every
    > > new product, technology, or company. Non-cooperative participants might
    > > be weeded out very fast, in such a setting.
    > >
    > > That might end arms races rather quickly, as the "tipping scales"
    > > phenomenon creates relatively instantaneous virtual monopolies for the
    > > "best of breed" competitors.
    > >
    > > Note:
    > > Space stations might well provide the means for repopulating the
    > > earth after the big comet. The major unsolved problem, as I see
    > > it, is passing down an accurate historical record to technologically
    > > illiterate civilizations that the survivors will inevitably
    > > devolve into before climbing back up the technological ladder.
    > > The result, I suspect, will give us something like Noah's Ark
    > > legends of myths of ancient "Gods" that become stories, no longer
    > > understood for what they are, but reinterpreted as allegories or
    > > changed in ways that conform with the listener's reality.
    > >
    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    > > Get your money connected @ OnMoney.com - the first Web site that lets
    > > you see and manage all of your finances all in one place.
    > > http://click.egroups.com/1/3012/3/_/444287/_/955505381/
    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    > >
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    >
    >
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    >
    > Message: 7
    > Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 00:31:00 -0700
    > From: "John J. Deneen" <JJDeneen@ricochet.net>
    > Subject: Re: Upcoming Agenda Items
    >
    > 1) Ideas for Use Case Scenarios
    > Groupware and Corporate Repositories: A Proposal for Leveraging
    > Intellectual
    > Capital
    > http://pangaro.com/proposals/corp-repos.html
    >
    >
    > 2) Ideas for Evaluations of "Starter Technologies"
    > Essential Elements of an Open Hyperdocument System
    > http://www.w3.org/Collaboration/EnglebartIOH.html
    >
    > Knowledge Management Research Project
    > http://www.c3.lanl.gov/~joslyn/xerox/briefing.html
    >
    > Collaborators Needed
    > http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/COLL.html
    >
    > XML repository and a relational repository
    > http://www.c3.lanl.gov/~rocha/lww/XMLRep.html
    >
    > Gordon Pask's Conversational Architecture: THOUGHTSTICKER
    > http://www.pangaro.com/published/thstr-and-me.html
    > http://www.pangaro.com/THSTR-Brochure/THSTR-Brochure.html
    >
    > This software is still ahead of today's state-of-the-art because
    > it combined
    > multimedia browsers with a fine-grained model of the user's
    > cognitive state
    > in order to deliver an effective, one-to-one learning experience. It was
    > incorporated into a large-scale training environment for a nuclear power
    > utility, where it was connected to an expert system that
    > diagnosed operator
    > behavior and created personalized training for plant operators during
    > emergencies.
    >
    > ... "Browsers Today: They may be ubiquitous, multi-media rich and
    > standardized everywhere, but (I repeat) today's browsers do not have what
    > Pask's entailments can bring to them: an organizing principle and the
    > fine-grained, adaptive nature of a conversation. Browsers will continue to
    > move to a meaning of "personalization" far closer to what Pask
    > presaged and
    > designed a substrate for, long before we knew we needed it. Commercial
    > technology for authoring and annotation, now the focus of an emerging Web
    > standard called WEBDav, similarly lacks the catalytic functions of
    > THOUGHTSTICKER. Commercial technologies will continue to evolve and will
    > move, I feel certain, toward what Conversation Theory could give them
    > now."...
    >
    >
    > 3) Ideas for Roadmap
    > Overview of Principia Cybernetica
    > http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/NUTSHELL.html
    >
    > Table of Contents
    > http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/TOC.html
    >
    > Futurology, Future Studies & Developing the Human Potential
    > http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/FUTDEVLI.html
    >
    > The Social Superorganism and its Global Brain
    > http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/SUPORGLI.html
    >
    >
    > 6) Ideas for Data Structures
    > Bootstrapping Methods for Knowledge Structuring
    > http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/KNOWSTRUC.html
    > http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/Papers/Pask-Bootstrapping.pdf
    >
    >
    > Eric Armstrong wrote:
    >
    > > Presentations
    > > -------------
    > > These are the presenations we currently have on the calendar.
    > > * Werner Schaer, Software Productivity Consortium
    > > (next meeting)
    > > * Doug Englebart: Augment
    > > (whenever ready)
    > >
    > > Topics
    > > ------
    > > This is the prioritized list of topics we generated at the last
    > > meeting. [I've added one more at the end -- after the meeting
    > > I realized that my major focus never got mentioned!]
    > >
    > > 1) Use Case Scenarios
    > > Still very high level. What the people using the system
    > > are going to be doing, how it is going to help them.
    > > Doug is going to Washington in a month. This exercise
    > > will help bring into focus the concrete benefits the
    > > system will provide. (Since people can readily visualize
    > > concrete benefits, this activity should help with the
    > > funding effort.)
    > >
    > > 2) Evaluations of "Starter Technologies"
    > > These are the early collaboration tools we may well want
    > > to employ as we go about designing the next generation
    > > system. We could build a starter system ourselves, but it
    > > might make sense to use an existing tool for that purpose.
    > > [Note: We need to get on to item 3 fast, for Doug's use
    > > in Washington, so we may wind up dividing up the list
    > > for evaluations in one meeting, then farming out the
    > > highly-evaluated possibilities for evaluation by someone
    > > else. So this item should be a fairly quick "report/
    > > assign activity.]
    > >
    > > 3) Technology Roadmap
    > > A development plan that shows what we intend to build long
    > > term and the release stages we plan to go through to get
    > > there.
    > >
    > > 4. Transcoding Vector
    > > An in-depth evaluation of Doug's favored "get started"
    > > option, using WBI to transcode existing documents.
    > >
    > > 5. Licensing and Business Model
    > > How we are going to do things in a way that makes the results
    > > available to humanity, yet provides the income necessary to
    > > ensure continued development and concept-marketing (to
    > > achieve widespread adoption of interoperating collaboration
    > > technologies provided by a large number of vendors, with the
    > > ultimate goal of augmenting (collaborative) human intelligence
    > > on the shortest possible time scale.
    > >
    > > [Note: I'll post a possible licensing model in a subsequent
    > > message.]
    > >
    > > 6. Data Structures [I added this one.]
    > > Identifying the "atomic" structure (or structures) that can
    > > be strung together to build the system. [I have some thoughts
    > > on this. Not sure if I'll get them posted tonight, though.]
    > >
    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    >
    >
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    > ________________________________________________________________________
    >
    >
    >
    >

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