Paul Fernhout wrote:
> "Open Source" (TM) Licenses cannot discriminate among classes of
> users. The system ... would not be considered "open source" or
> "Open Source"(TM).
I don't understand that. Why not? The reality is that unless
a revenue stream comes from somewhere, there is no way to "fill
in the picture" with little things like user documentation,
customer support, do interface usability studies, and do a
dozen other little things that produce a truly usable system.
> Violating these guidelines would likely lose the participation of open
> source developers. I have been participating in this colloquium on the
> basis of the promised "open source" nature of the eventual OHS/DKR.
> I such a license was chosen as is described below, I would not be too
> happy about that.
That's important feedback to keep in mind. Its something we have to make
a conscious decision on, if it turns out we go that way. I'd love to
open source it to everyone, but I have yet to see a business model that
makes sense, other than one where your *real* business is built on top
of the software.
> One can make money from open source software if that is one's goal.
> You just can't do it by selling the right to use the source or
> resultant binaries of the core distribution.
The goal is to provide the wherewithal to sustain future development,
and the freedom to pursue important projects when they become
apparent. There's only so much you can make from support contracts.
If we're going to enable GM to make or save an extra 10 billion one
year, as a side effect of getting the software we need to save our
collective skins, it's hard to see how it would be wrong to get a
slice of that, so we can do a better and faster job of (hopefully)
saving our skins. On the other hand, for some reason the open source
standard seems to have completely ruled out that option, even though
it appears to me, on the surface at least, to be completely reasonable.
Do you have any insight into how that decision was reached? Do you
know of any good sources that give a rationale for it?
> If Sun had delivered Java with an open source VM code base on day one,
> there would never have been this hord of over 100 slightly
> incompatible reimplimented JVMs all over the place -- making reliable
> Java code delivery to an arbitrary end user the nightmare it is today.
> That is why Java is considered by many to be dead on the browser for
> end users, and is now being used mainly in servlets. I use this as a
> cautionary tale -- pick the wrong license and much effort and good
> intentions may go for nothing and the wheel gets reinvented (badly)
One wonders what the result would have been had the results been freely
available to the "evil empire", without the financial resources to carry
on a legal battle -- or to fund the small army of developers who have
developed the GUI libraries, multimedia libraries, and other stuff for
the platform. It would have been nice if it had been truly open source
-- or would it. Would the result have been as useful for servlets, or
any more standard for browsers?
> Frankly, I don't think making money from selling stuff to support this
> effort should be a *primary* goal. If money is an issue, there are
> foundations and governments with billions of dollars spent annually on
> efforts less worthwhile then what is proposed here.
The primary goal is building it, supporting it, and being able to
improve it and/or take on other projects, as needs dictate. The only
"What is the best way to do that?". Open source has advantages. Making
money has advantages. What works best?
When it comes to foundations and governments, I would point out that
Doug has been pursuing this course for 30 some years. Where is the army
of developers he should have at his fingertips to take on new tasks?
Where is the collection of funding agencies lining up to back his
vision? The point of a "vision" is that is not a universally accepted
view. If you're going to make your vision a reality, it helps to have
the financial resources
to pursue it -- both individually and as an organization. Will open
source get us there? Possibly. What about 6 years from now, when an
equally important but slightly different opportunity comes along? Will
we still be doing it in our spare time? Or will we have the freedom to
devote all of our energies to it?
Right now, frankly, I'm concerned about my job performance. I am
investing a huge amount of time in this proposition, because I find it
compellingly necessary. But the intellectual energy that goes into this
project is *not* going into my "bread and butter" job. Typically, I run
at 200% or 300% (I write programs to augment my productivity, so I can
do a week's
worth of work by setting up a task and pressing a button). But recently,
my "on the job" productivity has been a fraction rather than a multiple.
And its a hell of a strain -- I come in evenings and weekends hoping to
make up for lost time, and then find myself with another irresistible
intellectual challenge. It's too important not to do, and I am both too
motivated and too undisciplined to walk away from the challenge. But how
exactly do I keep working at this and keep a full time job? I've figured
out that I ought to just stop *wanting* a life. But that doesn't really
work, does it?
> It would be better for individuals in my opinion interested in making
> money as part of this effort to either:
> a) be funded by grants individually or through a non-profit like the
> Bootstrap Alliance
No problem. Where are they?
> b) be funded by companies as employees (or contractors) and use and
> improve the DKR as part of their job to increase the companies
> efficiency (at the home company or on loan a Bootstrap alliance
Great idea. Know any companies willing to sign up?
> c) provide services as a RedHat/DigitalCreations/VALinux style company
> (installation, training, hosting, security analysis, customization) to
> companies to increase the companies efficiency using DKR technology,
> or (less desirably)
Now that the vacuous nature of *that* business plan has been exposed
(80% drop in capitalization in the last week), who do we sell this idea
to? It's fine for an existing company. You can make enough to keep
But I have yet to see the business model that makes a compelling enough
case to support venture capital risk.
The good news is that there are signs that *some* venture capital
thinking might be changing. There is a move towards "venture
philanthropy". Maybe something along those lines is possible. But the
business needs to create a revenue stream to support growth and
development. That is a necessity.
> d) provide proprietary add ons to the core distribution.
> Look at the Zope business model for a good example of the
That is a really solid possibility. I keep asking myself, what kinds of
add-ons make sense in a DKR? What would be a small enough core to be
useful, and yet allow for Adonis and upgrades?
I think its a given that you have to give away the browser, or use
existing browsers, if possible. So the add-on has to be on the server.
The avenue I saw is that corporations may want a server of their own,
so that they can keep their knowledge private. Educational institutions
and government, on the other hand, may well provide publically-available
servers. At the "informal meeting", it suddenly occurred to me that,
if successful, the DKR would be the best library you ever saw. So we may
see some future Carnage setting up Darkness points in cities around the
At bottom, then, what you are selling the corporation is *privacy*. But
that is not a major add-on. You could keep the code proprietary, of
course, but it's hard to see what would prevent it from being added.
Maybe a DKR should by its nature be publicly available, and you pay if
you want to make it private... But I still want to restrict the license
terms to companies that are making a profit -- so startups can use it,
among others. Or they can use any of the publicly available servers.
> I think broadly put, the best license choices are...
The Open Source proposition is still very much on the table.
All it takes is a business model that can work...
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This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Sun Apr 23 2000 - 20:13:32 PDT