Re: [unrev-II] Semantic Community Web Portal

From: John J. Deneen (jjdeneen@netzero.net)
Date: Mon Sep 10 2001 - 11:37:10 PDT

  • Next message: Alex Shapiro: "Re: [unrev-II] Everything2.com"

    Thanks Gil for the pointer. I find Prof. Shipman's paper: "Supporting
    Incremental Formalization with the Hyper-Object Substrate" very relevant
    to the OHS Launch Community efforts.

    You can find more info about the OHS Launch Community at: <
    http://www.eekim.com/ohs/lc/index.html >

    Gil Regev wrote:

    > This discussion reminds me of the paper by Shipman and Marshall
    > called "Formality Considered harmful". They show how and why people
    > don't take this extra step of documenting code, structuring their
    > discussions with IBIS (which the explicitly name) etc. It's not a long
    > paper and is easy to read. You can get it at:
    > http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/~shipman/formality-paper/harmful.htmlQuote:
    > "Reported experiences with mechanisms to capture design rationale --
    > from
    > McCall et alís use of PHI (McCall, Schaab, Schuler, 1983) to Conklin
    > and Burgess Yakemovicís
    > use of itIBIS (Conklin, Burgess Yakemovic, 1991) -- can be interpreted
    > as limited successes. The
    > methods resulted in long-term cost reductions, but success relied on
    > social pressure, extensive
    > training, or continuing human facilitation. In fact, Conklin and
    > Burgess Yakemovic reported that
    > they had little success in persuading other groups to use itIBIS
    > outside of Burgess Yakemovicís
    > development team, and that meeting minutes had to be converted to a
    > more conventional prose
    > form to engage any of these outside groups.Shipman then went on and
    > wrote another paper on a system they designed which helps people
    > incrementally formalize:
    > http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/~shipman/tois-hos.pdfShipman's home page is
    > at: http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/~shipman/Gil
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Eugene Eric Kim [mailto:eekim@eekim.com]
    > Sent: lundi, 10. septembre 2001 10:10
    > To: unrev-II@yahoogroups.com
    > Subject: Re: [unrev-II] Semantic Community Web Portal
    >
    > On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Jack Park wrote:
    >
    > > I have a confession to make.
    > >
    > > I have a login password for Bernard's web site. I have
    > yet to use
    > > it. Why? Because I am lazy. It is far easier to hit
    > NewMessage in Eudora
    > > and type "unrev" and then ship off some gem, than it is to
    > fire up my
    > > browser, type in enough of a url to get the browser to
    > remember where I
    > > want to go, then log in, then navigate to some appropriate
    > page, then offer
    > > up some gem. Eric Armstrong has been right all along:
    > email is easier.
    >
    > This is an important quandary. A little effort can result
    > in an order of
    > magnitude return. However, most people don't want to
    > blindly expend that
    > effort without knowing for sure that the returns will be
    > worth it. And
    > even then, most people are too lazy to expend the effort.
    > Witness the
    > reluctance most programmers show in documenting their code.
    >
    > If we can erase the need for that effort in the first place,
    > then the
    > problem is solved. This, however, is far easier said than
    > done.
    >
    > > But, email is far less useful in a couple of senses: it's
    > not well
    > > organized (in contrast to a well-designed web site as is
    > Bernard's), and it
    > > tends to allow rambling, which, I think, calls for some
    > structure, as for
    > > example IBIS provides. But then, try to put IBIS threads
    > into email and
    > > you lose the structure of the discussion; web sites are
    > better for
    > > that. So, I conclude, email is easier and for those of us
    > of the lazy
    > > persuasion, better. But, I also conclude that, for
    > purposes of logical
    > > coherence in discussion and knowledge space, web sites,
    > particularly those
    > > designed as knowledge portals like Bernards, are better.
    > Go figure.
    >
    > [...]
    >
    > > Were I to conjure a summary of this response, it would be:
    >
    > > What we need is a knowledge portal that is as convenient
    > as email, and as
    > > powerful as a web site.
    >
    > I have been experimenting with the following:
    >
    > 1. Use e-mail for unstructured discussion.
    > 2. Have a designated group facilitator create a
    > structured IBIS dialog
    > map of the e-mail discussion, with links to the
    > original e-mails.
    > 3. Use a Wiki to collaboratively build a web site that
    > integrates the
    > content from both the e-mail archives and the dialog
    > maps.
    >
    > I am convinced that this combination of tools and
    > methodology greatly
    > improves the collaborative process. However, in the absence
    > of better
    > tools, some effort must be made to conform to the
    > methodology, things like
    > periodically checking the dialog map and Wiki in addition to
    > following the
    > e-mail discussion. My challenge is convincing others that
    > this effort is
    > worthwhile.
    >
    > -Eugene
    >
    > --
    > +=== Eugene Eric Kim ===== eekim@eekim.com =====
    > http://www.eekim.com/ ===+
    > | "Writer's block is a fancy term made up by whiners
    > so they |
    > +===== can have an excuse to drink alcohol." --Steve
    > Martin ===========+
    >
    >
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