Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name
Following this thought of building tools to
support a greater understanding, I have always found
that it is easier to build a tool if you understand what
the task is and do it by hand first. (01)
So, since we are wanting to do a debate/discussion better,
What if you took this Iraq question and followed the
appropriate process using the tools that we have. (02)
Can we emulate via HTML a sufficiently rich example of
a good debate/discussion which would illustrate the
goal that you have? (03)
If so...l What are the first three steps to doing it? (04)
Henry K van Eyken <vaneyken@sympatico.ca> writes: (05)
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% Gary and Dennis.
%
% I don't believe we are really at odds about the Hussain/Iraq issue other
% than, perhaps, in some details. And if we ae at odds about those then it
% is most likely so because of our different sources of information and
% differing personal experiences. So, all in all, any differences are
% mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, verifiable
% facts.
%
% I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that latter
% weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we design and
% use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how can we
% arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes?
%
% Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people with
% different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex problems
% in as short an order as possible. That is what his OHS/Hyperscope ideas
% are about. From my own side, I believe that we ought be actively engaged
% in arriving at better ways for individual citizens to arrive at more
% reliable assessments on which to base our atitude and conduct in the
% democratic process.
%
% These would be good things to concentrate on because once the Hussain
% crisis is no longer front and center in our preoccupations, there will
% be other crises - well, there already are, and plenty of them. And with
% the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and the resources
% available to us, we should be in as good a position as any group to make
% some modest headway toward designing urgently needed tools.
%
% Henry
%
%
%
% Gary Richmond wrote:
%
% > Henry,
% >
% > Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response to the Not
% > In Our Name "Statement of Conscience" that I posted.
% >
% > I was going to wait a few days to respond in order to see what others
% > on the list might be thinking, but I have been encouraged by Aldo de
% > Moor to forward an email that I sent to him today concerning the issue
% > at hand.
% >
% > While this is certainly not a complete response to your post, since it
% > hardly addresses where I am tend to agree with you (for example,
% > regarding the language used in the NION statement), still, it gets
% > directly at some critical points relating to those matters where we
% > seem to be at odds.
% >
% > Gary
% >
% > ````
% > ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
% >
% > `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
% >
% > Hi Aldo,
% >
% > Thanks for your words of encouragement. They were needed and are
% > appreciated. I certainly agree with your "practical interpretation of
% > buddhism."
% >
% > Still, you no doubt saw Henry van Eyken's response to my posting the
% > NION "Statement of Conscience" on the bootstrap list. I can't say
% > that I feel very encouraged by his analysis. Sure, Hussain is an evil
% > man. But that's not the point. The possibility of a horrendous
% > pre-emptive war with the resultant lost of many innocent lives and a
% > further eroding of international stability (and the likelihood of
% > increased terrorism in response to it) for what might turn out to be
% > no better reason than that Bush wants it ought be reason for
% > considerable debate. No doubt Henry's comment that a statement of
% > conscience doesn't help the analysis of the complex situation we're
% > facing is correct--it is, after all, only a statement of conscience.
% > But his either/or, right/wrong analysis doesn't help either. He wrote:
% >
% >> The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain
% >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or
% >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring
% >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which
% >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be
% >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come.
% >
% > "Good fortune"? What about weapons inspection? How clear is it that
% > he has this "arsenal"? We have only Rumsfeld's word on the Iraqi
% > "co-conspiring terrorists"--van Eyken's comments sound to my ear like
% > so much falling into line with the disinformation we're being handed
% > by the Bush administration and a compliant US press. And if he's had
% > these "weapons of mass destruction" for years and hasn't used them,
% > why should we be rushing into war--which might impel him to use
% > them--without substantial debate and unilaterally, without support of
% > the UN and the international community? And the very notion of America
% > initiating a pre-emptive war is alarming to me in the extreme. May not
% > Pakistan follow our lead and use its atomic weapons on India? A
% > letter today to the editor of the NYTimes summarizes something of my
% > view:
% >
% >> A large number of thoughtful, patriotic Americans oppose an attack
% >> on Iraq based on a genuine concern that the cost to our country will
% >> be greater if we do than if we don't.
% >>
% >> It is incumbent on the administration and Congress to persuade us
% >> otherwise before committing us to a war that will take many lives
% >> and is likely to be very costly in fiscal and international
% >> political capital.
% >>
% >> If a solution other than war to the Saddam Hussein menace exists, we
% >> should be wise enough to find it; it will be more satisfying to
% >> outwit Saddam Hussein than to kill Iraqis.
% >>
% >> Many of us believe that the call to war against Iraq is the boyish
% >> whimsy of our president and that the reluctance of other leaders to
% >> object arises from political considerations.
% >> We implore sensible people, and especially Congressional leaders, to
% >> raise their voices in objection to any indulgence of presidential
% >> hubris that seems determined to lead us into a questionable war with
% >> the associated, tragic waste of lives and resources.
% >
% > I'll respond to Henry in the next few days if no one else on that list
% > finds his compliance with the position being disseminated by the press
% > troubling. But I hope some other voice of reason rises in response to
% > his expression of. . .well, FEAR that the Bushites are whipping up.
% > Expressions of fear are of even less value than those of conscience.
% >
% > Gary
% >
% >
% >
% > Aldo de Moor wrote:
% >
% >> On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Gary Richmond wrote:
% >>
% >>
% >> > Aldo, forgot to hit Reply All. G
% >> >
% >> > Myself, I'm sick to death of the whole thing. Of course, I keep
% >> > trying
% >> > to find ways to encourage opposition to "all this" on-line and in
% >> > my
% >> > work at the college, but one can begin to feel as absurd as
% >> > Sisyphus
% >> > (Camus' version), especially when one finds oneself either (1)
% >> > preaching
% >> > to the already converted or (2) running across idiocy amongst the
% >> > "best
% >> > and the brightest" that one meets on and off line or (3) finding
% >> > oneself--or being made to feel--hopelessly naive.
% >> >
% >> Don't give up, Gary. Remember, all static (and apparently hopeless
% >> looking) situations are in fact the resultant of incredible forces
% >> below
% >> the surface. Lots of critical capacity is building, definitely in
% >> Europe
% >> and, I'm sure, in the US as well.
% >>
% >> Let Bush & Ideological Sons continue the War on Terror. Ours is the
% >> "Meta-War" on Terror: we have to continue to be in pragmatic mode
% >> and
% >> examine and investigate un- or insufficiently challenged
% >> assumptions.
% >>
% >> The world has become an incredibly complex and dynamic place. Lots
% >> of
% >> reactionary people are afraid, and desperately looking for
% >> stability,
% >> which they think to have found in a policy of going strong on an
% >> easy
% >> target. Their real goal is not obliterating Iraq, but safety. Let's
% >> keep
% >> trying to find ways to provide alternative ways to safety.
% >>
% >> Keep in mind my practical interpretation of buddhism: aim towards
% >> your
% >> goals, but be satisfied with being
% >>
% >> involved in the process. Even if you
% >> never reach your objectives, feel that your voice matters.
% >> Persistence
% >> pays.
% >>
% >> Take care,
% >>
% >> Aldo
% >>
% >> ==========================================================================
% >> ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl
% >> IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069
% >> |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor
% >>
% >> Dr. Aldo de Moor
% >> Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg
% >> University
% >> PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands
% >> ==========================================================================
% >>
% >>
% >>
% >
% >
% >
% > Henry K van Eyken wrote:
% >
% >> Gary.
% >>
% >> First thing I should say that I myself am somewhat leary about
% >> George W.'s mix of motives w.r.t. a military action against Iraq's
% >> Saddam Hussain. (Please, notice that I did not say "against Iraq.")
% >> Which of his motives are presidential, I ask myself, and which are
% >> personal?
% >>
% >> From my reading over the years - including a biography of Hussain by
% >> an Iraqi author - I have come to understand that he is a student of
% >> such dictators as Hitler and Stalin and that he has been advised by
% >> members of the former communist soviet establishment how to rule
% >> with an iron fist. Also that he has used chemical and biological
% >> agents during the war against Iran, notably on Iraqi's. Also that he
% >> financially supports families of kids who blow themselves to bits in
% >> attempts to bring terror to the Israelis. (And, no, I am not taking
% >> sides here in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) Also that he
% >> applies his rule with a gun close at hand and that he has used it to
% >> kill people who simply disagreed with him. You may have noticed that
% >> pictures and videos of Hussain's cabinet meetings show all those in
% >> attendance with their hands on the table and the room in which they
% >> are seated having curtains all around. You may also have noticed
% >> that usually there stands a military guard right behind Hussain's
% >> seat. In short, it is wise to regard Hussain as a very dangerous
% >> person. Also as one who is quite prepared to take "everybody" with
% >> him when his time is up. Hitler aimed to do just that with his
% >> maniacal pursuit of the war in Russia and his scorched-earth
% >> directive for the destruction of Germany - which to Albert Speer's
% >> credit was not carried through. I fear that Hussain will be no
% >> different. (I could also refer to such stories as Iraqis murdering
% >> infants in Kuwaiti hospitals, but then again, we subsequently
% >> learned that those stories were concocted by a PR/advertising agency
% >> on behalf of Kuwait while the Kuwaiti "elite" was having a helluva
% >> good time in Egypt while American troops were drawing their line in
% >> the sand.)
% >>
% >> The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain
% >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or
% >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring
% >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which
% >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be
% >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come.
% >>
% >> The previous paragraphs sketch the disturbing picture of this member
% >> of a democratic society not being sufficiently informed to shape a
% >> clearly defensible position about whether or not to concur with
% >> military action against Saddam Hussain.
% >>
% >> Your post is no help, really. It refers to a "Statement of
% >> Conscience," but, personally, I think it utterly unconscionable to
% >> take a laissez-faire attitude with respect to Hussain and thereby
% >> condone the immense risk of exposing large numbers of people (friend
% >> and foe alike!) to weapons of mass destruction - especially so with
% >> the lesson of Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler still fresh in our
% >> minds. Turning to the web site you referred to, it immediately
% >> strikes me as riddled with sloganeering, polysyllables, and attempts
% >> at misrepresentation. Examples: "Not in Our Name" is sloganeering
% >> and the use of bold face to state "The statement appeared in the New
% >> York Times on September 19" gives a first impression of the
% >> statement being written by highly respected editorial writers,
% >> whereas the subsequent lighter print tells us it is merely an
% >> advertisement. Then, further catering to the readers' herd instinct,
% >> it tells us that "The New York Times ad [ not simply "the ad"]
% >> features a diverse list of influential names."
% >>
% >> It seems to me that somehow we shall need to learn to find better
% >> ways for citizens in democratic societies to arrive at their
% >> judgments. Somehow we shall have to learn to properly inform
% >> ourselves; how to filter out what is true; how to evaluate and judge
% >> the remaining sober; and then, how to act.
% >>
% >> "Statements of Conscience" signed by influential names are
% >> inadequate for dealing with urgent, complex problems.
% >>
% >> Henry
% >>
% >>
% >> Gary Richmond wrote:
% >>
% >> > The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience" NION (Not In Our
% >> > Name)
% >> >
% >> > Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing
% >> > when their government declared a war without limit and instituted
% >> > stark new measures of repression.
% >> >
% >> > The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to
% >> > resist the policies and overall political direction that have
% >> > emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to
% >> > the people of the world.
% >> >
% >> > http://www.nion.us/ (06)
-----
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