Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Connecting the Dots...
Thank you. (01)
I think Eric did a good job finding a way to get us off the
dime and get some basis for a collaborative discussion. (02)
It is not clear to me that I can engage at this level for the
next couple of days, so Please do jump in. (03)
The next step of the process has got to be to bring focus on
the issues raised. (04)
Is this the point that we put up a concept map? (05)
Is this the point that we draw an argument diagram? (06)
We have had several things go back and forth. So now how
do we extract them into something with higher level of meaning? (07)
ADM Staff <adm21staff@yahoo.com> writes: (08)
% --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153
% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
%
%
% Hi John,
% I was wondering whether to enter the fray on this issue; but you've said much of it for me!
% Thanks, Eric Sommer
% John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org> wrote:
% While I think that Eric has drawn an interesting
% collection of links.
%
% However, I think that it misses some critical
% points:
%
% 1) Iraq is not the problem: The implication is that
% regime change will alter the pattern of
% terrorism. The missing piece is that the
% result of regime change, especially forced
% regime change, is unpredictable.
%
% My belief is there is more opportunity of jumping
% out of the pan and into the fire if the
% change is made poorly.
%
% 2) The US is not the policeman of the world:
% The issue presented assumes that regime change
% by the US is appropriate.
%
% Just because you can do something does not
% mean that you should do something.
%
% If California gets unhappy with Arizona for
% abuse of the river that california wants.
% And it becomes a life and death issue for the
% people living in LA, is it going to be reasonable
% for the state militia of california to arizona?
%
% We believe in a world ruled by law, not by
% power and not by personality.
%
% Just as we would not want states using armed force,
% we don't want a world run by arms instead of law.
%
%
% 3) The law of unintended consequences.
%
% When you make changes in a complex system,
% you get unpredictable side effects.
%
% There is no guarentee that the side effects are
% better than the current situation
%
%
% 4) Haste makes waste
%
% Iraq has been doing silly things for decades.
% While eric made a case for why there is a
% relation between Iraq and al-queda,
% he does not make a case for timing.
%
% Why do we need to do something about now?
% There is no compleling reason to invade Iraq now.
% There are other tools in place that
% can effect change without going to war.
%
% the cost of war is going to be much higher than
% people imagine.
%
% 5) Our social system is based on trust.
%
% Much of what we do in the US is based on trust.
% We assume that things will work.
% We go to our banks and the banks don't have
% armed guards with special scanners and door locks.
%
% (They do have this in Italy by the way.)
%
% So we have many opportunities for terrorism.
% Any truck into a chlorine tank will take out a city.
%
% How many chlorine takes can you identify on your
% way to work?
%
% How many people died in Bpol because of a gas leak?
%
% So, there is no reason to expect that if Iraq is changed
% completly that they have in any way reduced the risk
% of terrorism.
%
% If fact, by forcing the issue in this way,
% they force more people into polarizing on the issue,
% and it in fact breeds more terror later.
%
% A short term win for a long term loss.
%
%
% So, I believe that eric has left out many of the issues
% related to the case. And as such does not make the
% compelling case for why we should do something
% in Iraq.
%
% We lose more people to stupidity every year than we lost in
% 9/11.
%
% It would be far more effective to engage the world
% on a different level than the current administration is
% operating on.
%
%
%
%
%
%
%
%
%
%
%
% -----
% John Sechrest . Helping people use
% CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet
% Public Electronic . more effectively
% Access to Knowledge,Inc .
% 1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
% Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325
% . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
%
% Advanced Data Management Systems
% Email: staff@adm21.net
% WorldWideOutline Initiative:
% Download free Trial Client:
% http://www.worldwideoutline.net
% ADM homepage:
% http://www.adm21.net
%
%
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% Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
% --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153
% Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
%
% <P>Hi John,
% <P>I was wondering whether to enter the fray on this issue; but you've said much of it for me!
% <P>Thanks, Eric Sommer
% <P> <B><I>John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org></I></B> wrote:
% <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>While I think that Eric has drawn an interesting <BR>collection of links.<BR><BR>However, I think that it misses some critical<BR>points:<BR><BR>1) Iraq is not
the problem: The implication is that<BR>regime change will alter the pattern of <BR>terrorism. The missing piece is that the <BR>result of regime change, especially forced<BR>regime change, is unpredictable. <BR><BR>My belief is there is more opportunit
y of jumping<BR>out of the pan and into the fire if the<BR>change is made poorly.<BR><BR>2) The US is not the policeman of the world:<BR>The issue presented assumes that regime change<BR>by the US is appropriate.<BR><BR>Just because you can do something
does not<BR>mean that you should do something.<BR><BR>If California gets unhappy with Arizona for <BR>abuse of the river that california wants.<BR>And it becomes a life and death issue for the <BR>people living in LA, is it going !
% to be reasonable<BR>for the state militia of california to arizona?<BR><BR>We believe in a world ruled by law, not by <BR>power and not by personality. <BR><BR>Just as we would not want states using armed force,<BR>we don't want a world run by arms ins
tead of law.<BR><BR><BR>3) The law of unintended consequences.<BR><BR>When you make changes in a complex system,<BR>you get unpredictable side effects. <BR><BR>There is no guarentee that the side effects are<BR>better than the current situation<BR><BR><
BR>4) Haste makes waste<BR><BR>Iraq has been doing silly things for decades. <BR>While eric made a case for why there is a <BR>relation between Iraq and al-queda,<BR>he does not make a case for timing.<BR><BR>Why do we need to do something about now?<BR
>There is no compleling reason to invade Iraq now.<BR>There are other tools in place that<BR>can effect change without going to war.<BR><BR>the cost of war is going to be much higher than<BR>people imagine.<BR><BR>5) Our social sys!
% tem is based on trust.<BR><BR>Much of what we do in the US is!
% based on trust.<BR>We assume that things will work.<BR>We go to our banks and the banks don't have<BR>armed guards with special scanners and door locks.<BR><BR>(They do have this in Italy by the way.)<BR><BR>So we have many opportunities for terrorism
.<BR>Any truck into a chlorine tank will take out a city.<BR><BR>How many chlorine takes can you identify on your<BR>way to work? <BR><BR>How many people died in Bpol because of a gas leak?<BR><BR>So, there is no reason to expect that if Iraq is changed
<BR>completly that they have in any way reduced the risk<BR>of terrorism. <BR><BR>If fact, by forcing the issue in this way,<BR>they force more people into polarizing on the issue,<BR>and it in fact breeds more terror later.<BR><BR>A short term win for
a long term loss.<BR><BR><BR>So, I believe that eric has left out many of the issues<BR>related to the case. And as such does not make the <BR>compelling case for why we should do something<BR>in Iraq.<BR><BR>We lose more people to!
% stupidity every year than we lost in<BR>9/11. <BR><BR>It would be far more effective to engage the world<BR>on a different level than the current administration is<BR>operating on.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----<BR>John Sechrest
. Helping people use<BR>CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet<BR>Public Electronic . more effectively<BR>Access to Knowledge,Inc . <BR>1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org<BR>Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325<BR>. http://www.
peak.org/~sechrest</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Advanced Data Management Systems<br>Email: staff@adm21.net<br>WorldWideOutline Initiative: <br>Download free Trial Client:<br>http://www.worldwideoutline.net<br>ADM homepage:<br>http://www.adm21.net<p><br><hr size=
1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
% <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailtagline/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/";>Yahoo! Tax Center</a> - forms, calculators, tips, and more
% --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153--
% (09)
-----
John Sechrest . Helping people use
CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet
Public Electronic . more effectively
Access to Knowledge,Inc .
1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325
. http://www.peak.org/~sechrest (010)