Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Connecting the Dots...
Do you have any graphviz compatable tools that dynamically
build things? (01)
If we use the .dot format used by the graphviz tools, then
I can put a static argument up in Omnigraffle. (02)
[The .dot format looks like: (03)
digraph Iraq { (04)
Iraq -> "War with Iraq";
"War with Iraq"-> "regime change";
"War with Iraq"-> "unstability";
"unstability" -> "bad result(john)" ;
"regime change" -> "good result(eric) ";
} (05)
We can then formulate the conversation by email in text , but
glue together the form into a diagram offline. (06)
In some sense, we are at the point where a dynamic tool would help. (07)
do you still have the touchgraph glue into your nexist wiki? (08)
Do you have an RSS feed/mail feed off your nexist wiki? (09)
Jack Park <jackpark@thinkalong.com> writes: (010)
% FWIW: I have a program called WebQuestMapper. It is an applet, built by a
% pair formed by me and Peter Jones in the UK. A screenshot of it can be
% found at http://www.nexist.org/wqm/wqm1.gif
%
% The applet is not unlike Compendium (http://www.compendiuminstitute.org)
% which, if you run wintel, is available for use.
%
% I can create a dialog map of the discussion and put up a screenshot if needed.
%
% WQM is a Jabber client/server, but, right now, is running on a demo
% commercial server which limits groups to 5 people. It is actually part of a
% larger project called Jabber4J, for which I have created an instance of
% NexistWiki: http://www.nexist.org/j4j/
%
% Jack
%
% At 07:24 AM 3/6/2003, you wrote:
%
% >Thank you.
% >
% >I think Eric did a good job finding a way to get us off the
% >dime and get some basis for a collaborative discussion.
% >
% >It is not clear to me that I can engage at this level for the
% >next couple of days, so Please do jump in.
% >
% >The next step of the process has got to be to bring focus on
% >the issues raised.
% >
% >Is this the point that we put up a concept map?
% >
% >Is this the point that we draw an argument diagram?
% >
% >
% >We have had several things go back and forth. So now how
% >do we extract them into something with higher level of meaning?
% >
% >
% >
% >
% >ADM Staff <adm21staff@yahoo.com> writes:
% >
% > % --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153
% > % Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
% > %
% > %
% > % Hi John,
% > % I was wondering whether to enter the fray on this issue; but you've
% > said much of it for me!
% > % Thanks, Eric Sommer
% > % John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org> wrote:
% > % While I think that Eric has drawn an interesting
% > % collection of links.
% > %
% > % However, I think that it misses some critical
% > % points:
% > %
% > % 1) Iraq is not the problem: The implication is that
% > % regime change will alter the pattern of
% > % terrorism. The missing piece is that the
% > % result of regime change, especially forced
% > % regime change, is unpredictable.
% > %
% > % My belief is there is more opportunity of jumping
% > % out of the pan and into the fire if the
% > % change is made poorly.
% > %
% > % 2) The US is not the policeman of the world:
% > % The issue presented assumes that regime change
% > % by the US is appropriate.
% > %
% > % Just because you can do something does not
% > % mean that you should do something.
% > %
% > % If California gets unhappy with Arizona for
% > % abuse of the river that california wants.
% > % And it becomes a life and death issue for the
% > % people living in LA, is it going to be reasonable
% > % for the state militia of california to arizona?
% > %
% > % We believe in a world ruled by law, not by
% > % power and not by personality.
% > %
% > % Just as we would not want states using armed force,
% > % we don't want a world run by arms instead of law.
% > %
% > %
% > % 3) The law of unintended consequences.
% > %
% > % When you make changes in a complex system,
% > % you get unpredictable side effects.
% > %
% > % There is no guarentee that the side effects are
% > % better than the current situation
% > %
% > %
% > % 4) Haste makes waste
% > %
% > % Iraq has been doing silly things for decades.
% > % While eric made a case for why there is a
% > % relation between Iraq and al-queda,
% > % he does not make a case for timing.
% > %
% > % Why do we need to do something about now?
% > % There is no compleling reason to invade Iraq now.
% > % There are other tools in place that
% > % can effect change without going to war.
% > %
% > % the cost of war is going to be much higher than
% > % people imagine.
% > %
% > % 5) Our social system is based on trust.
% > %
% > % Much of what we do in the US is based on trust.
% > % We assume that things will work.
% > % We go to our banks and the banks don't have
% > % armed guards with special scanners and door locks.
% > %
% > % (They do have this in Italy by the way.)
% > %
% > % So we have many opportunities for terrorism.
% > % Any truck into a chlorine tank will take out a city.
% > %
% > % How many chlorine takes can you identify on your
% > % way to work?
% > %
% > % How many people died in Bpol because of a gas leak?
% > %
% > % So, there is no reason to expect that if Iraq is changed
% > % completly that they have in any way reduced the risk
% > % of terrorism.
% > %
% > % If fact, by forcing the issue in this way,
% > % they force more people into polarizing on the issue,
% > % and it in fact breeds more terror later.
% > %
% > % A short term win for a long term loss.
% > %
% > %
% > % So, I believe that eric has left out many of the issues
% > % related to the case. And as such does not make the
% > % compelling case for why we should do something
% > % in Iraq.
% > %
% > % We lose more people to stupidity every year than we lost in
% > % 9/11.
% > %
% > % It would be far more effective to engage the world
% > % on a different level than the current administration is
% > % operating on.
% > %
% > %
% > %
% > %
% > %
% > %
% > %
% > %
% > %
% > %
% > %
% > % -----
% > % John Sechrest . Helping people use
% > % CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet
% > % Public Electronic . more effectively
% > % Access to Knowledge,Inc .
% > % 1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
% > % Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325
% > % . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
% > %
% > % Advanced Data Management Systems
% > % Email: staff@adm21.net
% > % WorldWideOutline Initiative:
% > % Download free Trial Client:
% > % http://www.worldwideoutline.net
% > % ADM homepage:
% > % http://www.adm21.net
% > %
% > %
% > % ---------------------------------
% > % Do you Yahoo!?
% > % Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
% > % --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153
% > % Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
% > %
% > % <P>Hi John,
% > % <P>I was wondering whether to enter the fray on this issue; but you've
% > said much of it for me!
% > % <P>Thanks, Eric Sommer
% > % <P> <B><I>John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org></I></B> wrote:
% > % <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
% > #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>While I think that Eric has drawn an interesting
% > <BR>collection of links.<BR><BR>However, I think that it misses some
% > critical<BR>points:<BR><BR>1) Iraq is not
% > the problem: The implication is that<BR>regime change will alter the
% > pattern of <BR>terrorism. The missing piece is that the <BR>result of
% > regime change, especially forced<BR>regime change, is unpredictable.
% > <BR><BR>My belief is there is more opportunit
% > y of jumping<BR>out of the pan and into the fire if the<BR>change is
% > made poorly.<BR><BR>2) The US is not the policeman of the world:<BR>The
% > issue presented assumes that regime change<BR>by the US is
% > appropriate.<BR><BR>Just because you can do something
% > does not<BR>mean that you should do something.<BR><BR>If California
% > gets unhappy with Arizona for <BR>abuse of the river that california
% > wants.<BR>And it becomes a life and death issue for the <BR>people living
% > in LA, is it going !
% > % to be reasonable<BR>for the state militia of california to
% > arizona?<BR><BR>We believe in a world ruled by law, not by <BR>power and
% > not by personality. <BR><BR>Just as we would not want states using armed
% > force,<BR>we don't want a world run by arms ins
% > tead of law.<BR><BR><BR>3) The law of unintended
% > consequences.<BR><BR>When you make changes in a complex system,<BR>you
% > get unpredictable side effects. <BR><BR>There is no guarentee that the
% > side effects are<BR>better than the current situation<BR><BR><
% > BR>4) Haste makes waste<BR><BR>Iraq has been doing silly things for
% > decades. <BR>While eric made a case for why there is a <BR>relation
% > between Iraq and al-queda,<BR>he does not make a case for
% > timing.<BR><BR>Why do we need to do something about now?<BR
% > >There is no compleling reason to invade Iraq now.<BR>There are other
% > tools in place that<BR>can effect change without going to war.<BR><BR>the
% > cost of war is going to be much higher than<BR>people imagine.<BR><BR>5)
% > Our social sys!
% > % tem is based on trust.<BR><BR>Much of what we do in the US is!
% > % based on trust.<BR>We assume that things will work.<BR>We go to our
% > banks and the banks don't have<BR>armed guards with special scanners and
% > door locks.<BR><BR>(They do have this in Italy by the way.)<BR><BR>So we
% > have many opportunities for terrorism
% > .<BR>Any truck into a chlorine tank will take out a city.<BR><BR>How
% > many chlorine takes can you identify on your<BR>way to work? <BR><BR>How
% > many people died in Bpol because of a gas leak?<BR><BR>So, there is no
% > reason to expect that if Iraq is changed
% > <BR>completly that they have in any way reduced the risk<BR>of
% > terrorism. <BR><BR>If fact, by forcing the issue in this way,<BR>they
% > force more people into polarizing on the issue,<BR>and it in fact breeds
% > more terror later.<BR><BR>A short term win for
% > a long term loss.<BR><BR><BR>So, I believe that eric has left out many
% > of the issues<BR>related to the case. And as such does not make the
% > <BR>compelling case for why we should do something<BR>in Iraq.<BR><BR>We
% > lose more people to!
% > % stupidity every year than we lost in<BR>9/11. <BR><BR>It would be far
% > more effective to engage the world<BR>on a different level than the
% > current administration is<BR>operating
% > on.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----<BR>John Sechrest
% > . Helping people use<BR>CTO PEAK - . computers and the
% > Internet<BR>Public Electronic . more effectively<BR>Access to
% > Knowledge,Inc . <BR>1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet:
% > sechrest@peak.org<BR>Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325<BR>. http://www.
% > peak.org/~sechrest</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Advanced Data Management
% > Systems<br>Email: staff@adm21.net<br>WorldWideOutline Initiative:
% > <br>Download free Trial Client:<br>http://www.worldwideoutline.net<br>ADM
% > homepage:<br>http://www.adm21.net<p><br><hr size=
% > 1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
% > % <a
% > href="http://rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailtagline/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/";>Yahoo!
% > Tax Center</a> - forms, calculators, tips, and more
% > % --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153--
% > %
% >
% >-----
% >John Sechrest . Helping people use
% >CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet
% >Public Electronic . more effectively
% >Access to Knowledge,Inc .
% >1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
% >Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325
% > . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
%
% ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
% XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web.
% Addison-Wesley. Jack Park, Editor. Sam Hunting, Technical Editor
%
% Build smarter kids globally to reduce the need for smarter bombs.
%
% (011)
-----
John Sechrest . Helping people use
CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet
Public Electronic . more effectively
Access to Knowledge,Inc .
1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325
. http://www.peak.org/~sechrest (012)