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Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Connecting the Dots...


(I like where this is headed, you guys!)    (01)

Jack Park wrote:
> 
> Weblogs do RSS in the latest NexistWiki (see http://www.nexist.org/jt/ for
> the latest rendition).
> Touchgraph is not wired into this version (yet).
> 
> Theoretically speaking, I can export in any format desired, including .dot
> format.
> IBIS should be wired up in NexistWiki later next week.
> 
> Jack
> 
> At 08:25 AM 3/6/2003, you wrote:
> 
> >Do you have any graphviz compatable tools that dynamically
> >build things?
> >
> >
> >If we use the .dot format used by the graphviz tools, then
> >I can put a static argument up in Omnigraffle.
> >
> >[The .dot format looks like:
> >
> >
> >      digraph Iraq {
> >
> >      Iraq -> "War with Iraq";
> >      "War with Iraq"-> "regime change";
> >      "War with Iraq"-> "unstability";
> >      "unstability" -> "bad result(john)" ;
> >      "regime change" -> "good result(eric) ";
> >      }
> >
> >
> >We can then formulate the conversation by email in text , but
> >glue together the form into a diagram offline.
> >
> >In some sense, we are at the point where a dynamic tool would help.
> >
> >do you still have the touchgraph glue into your nexist wiki?
> >
> >Do you have an RSS feed/mail feed off your nexist wiki?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Jack Park <jackpark@thinkalong.com> writes:
> >
> >  % FWIW: I have a program called WebQuestMapper. It is an applet, built by a
> >  % pair formed by me and Peter Jones in the UK.  A screenshot of it can be
> >  % found at http://www.nexist.org/wqm/wqm1.gif
> >  %
> >  % The applet is not unlike Compendium (http://www.compendiuminstitute.org)
> >  % which, if you run wintel, is available for use.
> >  %
> >  % I can create a dialog map of the discussion and put up a screenshot if
> > needed.
> >  %
> >  % WQM is a Jabber client/server, but, right now, is running on a demo
> >  % commercial server which limits groups to 5 people. It is actually part
> > of a
> >  % larger project called Jabber4J, for which I have created an instance of
> >  % NexistWiki: http://www.nexist.org/j4j/
> >  %
> >  % Jack
> >  %
> >  % At 07:24 AM 3/6/2003, you wrote:
> >  %
> >  % >Thank you.
> >  % >
> >  % >I think Eric did a good job finding a way to get us off the
> >  % >dime and get some basis for a collaborative discussion.
> >  % >
> >  % >It is not clear to me that I can engage at this level for the
> >  % >next couple of days, so Please do jump in.
> >  % >
> >  % >The next step of the process has got to be to bring focus on
> >  % >the issues raised.
> >  % >
> >  % >Is this the point that we put up a concept map?
> >  % >
> >  % >Is this the point that we draw an argument diagram?
> >  % >
> >  % >
> >  % >We have had several things go back and forth. So now how
> >  % >do we extract them into something with higher level of meaning?
> >  % >
> >  % >
> >  % >
> >  % >
> >  % >ADM Staff <adm21staff@yahoo.com> writes:
> >  % >
> >  % >  % --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153
> >  % >  % Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % Hi John,
> >  % >  % I was wondering whether to enter the fray on this issue; but you've
> >  % > said much of it for me!
> >  % >  % Thanks, Eric Sommer
> >  % >  %  John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org> wrote:
> >  % >  % While I think that Eric has drawn an interesting
> >  % >  % collection of links.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % However, I think that it misses some critical
> >  % >  % points:
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % 1) Iraq is not the problem: The implication is that
> >  % >  % regime change will alter the pattern of
> >  % >  % terrorism. The missing piece is that the
> >  % >  % result of regime change, especially forced
> >  % >  % regime change, is unpredictable.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % My belief is there is more opportunity of jumping
> >  % >  % out of the pan and into the fire if the
> >  % >  % change is made poorly.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % 2) The US is not the policeman of the world:
> >  % >  % The issue presented assumes that regime change
> >  % >  % by the US is appropriate.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % Just because you can do something does not
> >  % >  % mean that you should do something.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % If California gets unhappy with Arizona for
> >  % >  % abuse of the river that california wants.
> >  % >  % And it becomes a life and death issue for the
> >  % >  % people living in LA, is it going to be reasonable
> >  % >  % for the state militia of california to arizona?
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % We believe in a world ruled by law, not by
> >  % >  % power and not by personality.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % Just as we would not want states using armed force,
> >  % >  % we don't want a world run by arms instead of law.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % 3) The law of unintended consequences.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % When you make changes in a complex system,
> >  % >  % you get unpredictable side effects.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % There is no guarentee that the side effects are
> >  % >  % better than the current situation
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % 4) Haste makes waste
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % Iraq has been doing silly things for decades.
> >  % >  % While eric made a case for why there is a
> >  % >  % relation between Iraq and al-queda,
> >  % >  % he does not make a case for timing.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % Why do we need to do something about now?
> >  % >  % There is no compleling reason to invade Iraq now.
> >  % >  % There are other tools in place that
> >  % >  % can effect change without going to war.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % the cost of war is going to be much higher than
> >  % >  % people imagine.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % 5) Our social system is based on trust.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % Much of what we do in the US is based on trust.
> >  % >  % We assume that things will work.
> >  % >  % We go to our banks and the banks don't have
> >  % >  % armed guards with special scanners and door locks.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % (They do have this in Italy by the way.)
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % So we have many opportunities for terrorism.
> >  % >  % Any truck into a chlorine tank will take out a city.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % How many chlorine takes can you identify on your
> >  % >  % way to work?
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % How many people died in Bpol because of a gas leak?
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % So, there is no reason to expect that if Iraq is changed
> >  % >  % completly that they have in any way reduced the risk
> >  % >  % of terrorism.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % If fact, by forcing the issue in this way,
> >  % >  % they force more people into polarizing on the issue,
> >  % >  % and it in fact breeds more terror later.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % A short term win for a long term loss.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % So, I believe that eric has left out many of the issues
> >  % >  % related to the case. And as such does not make the
> >  % >  % compelling case for why we should do something
> >  % >  % in Iraq.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % We lose more people to stupidity every year than we lost in
> >  % >  % 9/11.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % It would be far more effective to engage the world
> >  % >  % on a different level than the current administration is
> >  % >  % operating on.
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % -----
> >  % >  % John Sechrest . Helping people use
> >  % >  % CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet
> >  % >  % Public Electronic . more effectively
> >  % >  % Access to Knowledge,Inc .
> >  % >  % 1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
> >  % >  % Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325
> >  % >  % . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % Advanced Data Management Systems
> >  % >  % Email: staff@adm21.net
> >  % >  % WorldWideOutline Initiative:
> >  % >  % Download free Trial Client:
> >  % >  % http://www.worldwideoutline.net
> >  % >  % ADM homepage:
> >  % >  % http://www.adm21.net
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % ---------------------------------
> >  % >  % Do you Yahoo!?
> >  % >  % Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
> >  % >  % --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153
> >  % >  % Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> >  % >  %
> >  % >  % <P>Hi John,
> >  % >  % <P>I was wondering whether to enter the fray on this issue; but
> > you've
> >  % > said much of it for me!
> >  % >  % <P>Thanks, Eric Sommer
> >  % >  % <P>&nbsp;<B><I>John Sechrest &lt;sechrest@peak.org&gt;</I></B> wrote:
> >  % >  % <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
> >  % > #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>While I think that Eric has drawn an interesting
> >  % > <BR>collection of links.<BR><BR>However, I think that it misses some
> >  % > critical<BR>points:<BR><BR>1) Iraq is not
> >  % >   the problem: The implication is that<BR>regime change will alter the
> >  % > pattern of <BR>terrorism. The missing piece is that the <BR>result of
> >  % > regime change, especially forced<BR>regime change, is unpredictable.
> >  % > <BR><BR>My belief is there is more opportunit
> >  % >   y of jumping<BR>out of the pan and into the fire if the<BR>change is
> >  % > made poorly.<BR><BR>2) The US is not the policeman of the world:<BR>The
> >  % > issue presented assumes that regime change<BR>by the US is
> >  % > appropriate.<BR><BR>Just because you can do something
> >  % >    does not<BR>mean that you should do something.<BR><BR>If California
> >  % > gets unhappy with Arizona for <BR>abuse of the river that california
> >  % > wants.<BR>And it becomes a life and death issue for the <BR>people
> > living
> >  % > in LA, is it going !
> >  % >  % to be reasonable<BR>for the state militia of california to
> >  % > arizona?<BR><BR>We believe in a world ruled by law, not by <BR>power
> > and
> >  % > not by personality. <BR><BR>Just as we would not want states using
> > armed
> >  % > force,<BR>we don't want a world run by arms ins
> >  % >   tead of law.<BR><BR><BR>3) The law of unintended
> >  % > consequences.<BR><BR>When you make changes in a complex system,<BR>you
> >  % > get unpredictable side effects. <BR><BR>There is no guarentee that the
> >  % > side effects are<BR>better than the current situation<BR><BR><
> >  % >   BR>4) Haste makes waste<BR><BR>Iraq has been doing silly things for
> >  % > decades. <BR>While eric made a case for why there is a <BR>relation
> >  % > between Iraq and al-queda,<BR>he does not make a case for
> >  % > timing.<BR><BR>Why do we need to do something about now?<BR
> >  % >   >There is no compleling reason to invade Iraq now.<BR>There are other
> >  % > tools in place that<BR>can effect change without going to
> > war.<BR><BR>the
> >  % > cost of war is going to be much higher than<BR>people
> > imagine.<BR><BR>5)
> >  % > Our social sys!
> >  % >  % tem is based on trust.<BR><BR>Much of what we do in the US is!
> >  % >  %  based on trust.<BR>We assume that things will work.<BR>We go to our
> >  % > banks and the banks don't have<BR>armed guards with special scanners
> > and
> >  % > door locks.<BR><BR>(They do have this in Italy by the
> > way.)<BR><BR>So we
> >  % > have many opportunities for terrorism
> >  % >   .<BR>Any truck into a chlorine tank will take out a city.<BR><BR>How
> >  % > many chlorine takes can you identify on your<BR>way to work?
> > <BR><BR>How
> >  % > many people died in Bpol because of a gas leak?<BR><BR>So, there is no
> >  % > reason to expect that if Iraq is changed
> >  % >   <BR>completly that they have in any way reduced the risk<BR>of
> >  % > terrorism. <BR><BR>If fact, by forcing the issue in this way,<BR>they
> >  % > force more people into polarizing on the issue,<BR>and it in fact
> > breeds
> >  % > more terror later.<BR><BR>A short term win for
> >  % >   a long term loss.<BR><BR><BR>So, I believe that eric has left out
> > many
> >  % > of the issues<BR>related to the case. And as such does not make the
> >  % > <BR>compelling case for why we should do something<BR>in
> > Iraq.<BR><BR>We
> >  % > lose more people to!
> >  % >  %  stupidity every year than we lost in<BR>9/11. <BR><BR>It would
> > be far
> >  % > more effective to engage the world<BR>on a different level than the
> >  % > current administration is<BR>operating
> >  % > on.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----<BR>John
> > Sechrest
> >  % >   . Helping people use<BR>CTO PEAK - . computers and the
> >  % > Internet<BR>Public Electronic . more effectively<BR>Access to
> >  % > Knowledge,Inc . <BR>1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet:
> >  % > sechrest@peak.org<BR>Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325<BR>.
> > http://www.
> >  % >   peak.org/~sechrest</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Advanced Data Management
> >  % > Systems<br>Email: staff@adm21.net<br>WorldWideOutline Initiative:
> >  % > <br>Download free Trial
> > Client:<br>http://www.worldwideoutline.net<br>ADM
> >  % > homepage:<br>http://www.adm21.net<p><br><hr size=
> >  % >   1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
> >  % >  % <a
> >  % >
> > href="http://rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailtagline/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/";>Yahoo!
> >  % > Tax Center</a> - forms, calculators, tips, and more
> >  % >  % --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153--
> >  % >  %
> >  % >
> >  % >-----
> >  % >John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
> >  % >CTO PEAK -              .           computers and the Internet
> >  % >Public Electronic         .            more effectively
> >  % >Access to Knowledge,Inc       .
> >  % >1600 SW Western, Suite 180       .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
> >  % >Corvallis Oregon 97333               .                  (541) 754-7325
> >  % >                                             .
> > http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
> >  %
> >  %
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  % XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web.
> >  % Addison-Wesley. Jack Park, Editor. Sam Hunting, Technical Editor
> >  %
> >  % Build smarter kids globally to reduce the need for smarter bombs.
> >  %
> >  %
> >
> >-----
> >John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
> >CTO PEAK -              .           computers and the Internet
> >Public Electronic         .            more effectively
> >Access to Knowledge,Inc       .
> >1600 SW Western, Suite 180       .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
> >Corvallis Oregon 97333               .                  (541) 754-7325
> >                                             . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web.
> Addison-Wesley. Jack Park, Editor. Sam Hunting, Technical Editor
> 
> Build smarter kids globally to reduce the need for smarter bombs.    (02)