Re: [unrev-II] Thinking about communicating

From: Peter Jones (ppj@concept67.fsnet.co.uk)
Date: Sat Aug 25 2001 - 14:10:34 PDT

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    And from
    http://www.animal.helsinki.fi/lojban/loglan.html

    "Loglan and Lojban - about the dispute
    By Robert LeChevalier, lojbab@lojban.org
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ----
    Lojban is the current viable version of the artificial language Loglan,
    supported by The Logical Language Group, Inc., a non-profit organization.
    Lojban is a public-domain Loglan, with 600-800 supporters depending on how
    you count, about 120 people claiming to be learning the language, and over a
    dozen having completed a course and/or otherwise demonstrating skill in the
    language.
    The inventor of Loglan James Cooke Brown (JCB) is continuing work on a
    separate version of Loglan. While he does not advertise it as such, much of
    his language design is considered proprietary, and he claims copyright,
    royalty and publication rights in his version of the language, and trade
    secret agreements to get complete language details. To keep his control over
    the language in the face of 'competition' from Lojban, few supporters of
    'Institute Loglan' are given direct access to others, and there is little
    spontaneous activity going on. There are by latest report 110 supporters,
    many of whom are supporting both versions of the language. Most of these
    stem from a largely unsuccessful advertising campaign 1-2 years ago when he
    published a revision of his book on the language. There are no known
    speakers, and the few short texts in the language are updates of things
    written in the 1970's before the split. While I am obviously biased, I
    firmly believe that this version of Loglan is dead and going nowhere. In any
    event, the proprietary claims on the language give it little attraction to
    most potential users of the language."
    

    But the date is: Copyright, 1991, by the Logical Language Group, Inc. ...so things might have changed a bit by now.

    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Armstrong" <eric.armstrong@eng.sun.com> To: <unrev-II@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 10:42 PM Subject: Re: [unrev-II] Thinking about communicating

    > Interesting question. Jeff Conklin once observed that there are > 5 kinds of questions that get raised in a discussion about an > issue. (Or maybe it was 7.) The one that stuck in mind was, > "What does that mean?" > > I took that to mean, "what does it mean if we do X?". In other > words, what does that make us? > > Another type of question was, "what are the implications of that > decision?" > > Jeff's experience is based on moderating discussions of this kind, > so I'm sure that the opened-spirit of the method has engenered a > lot of moral/ethical thinking. > > As to the efficacy of Loglan for such discussions, I really > couldn't say, at the moment. But the notion thats that "X is > good", "we want X", would seem to be expressible any language > worthy of the name, although we may not have 10,000 shades of > desirability, from "that would seem to be sort of potentially > desirable, in some circumstances, I believe" to "WE MUST HAVE > THAT AT ALL COSTS". > > Peter Jones wrote: > > > > Eric wrote: > > > Now, from the standpoint of ordinary communications, I admit that > > > sounds like a defect. But from the standpoint of carrying out an > > > IBIS-style online discussion of an issue, the restriction to > > > emotionally-neutral expression is very likely to be a positive > > > thing, especially in light of... > > > > Perhaps. But to dispute this point would get us into an enormous > > discussion > > of as yet unresolved issues with moral theories. > > For instance, many believe that it is impossible to be ethical without > > some > > intuitive sense of care, and that care is not a logical term in the > > human > > psyche. > > > > I would like to hear from anyone who has attempted to discuss an > > important > > ethical issue IBIS-style. Or even, if anyone believes they have > > successfully > > resolved an > > ethical issue in IBIS discussion, it would be interesting to analyse > > the > > discussion for > > presumed terms not explicit in the discussion transcript. > > > > Cheers, > > Peter > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Eric Armstrong" <eric.armstrong@eng.sun.com> > > To: <unrev-II@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 12:01 AM > > Subject: Re: [unrev-II] Thinking about communicating > > > > > Jack Park wrote: > > > > > > > > That work began the evolution of the language Loglan > > > > http://www.loglan.org > > > > > > > Thanks for the pointer, Jack. > > > I've always loved computer languages, as well as propositional > > > calculus and related algebras. I've had a linguistic bent for > > > years, too, but there are too many exceptions to memorize in > > > most languages. > > > > > > Sanskrit and Amayara (sp?) appear to be outstanding exceptions, > > > but there isn't much call for those. This one, aimed at being > > > a "LOGical LANguage", or "LOGician's LANguage", appears quite > > > interesting. > > > > > > "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" wrote: > > > > > > > > One aspect of the language that intrigued me is that the > > > > dictionary consists of predicates, each of which takes a > > > > specified set of arguments -- essentially subroutines or > > > > method calls. > > > > > > > Fascinating. > > > > > > Jack Park wrote: > > > > > > > > I am thinking that Loglan, or perhaps some future derivative > > > > of it, could form the seeds of a rather potent language for > > > > online discussions. > > > > > > > I think so, too. Partly because of the logical nature of the > > > language, but especially in light of... > > > > > > Peter Jones wrote: > > > > > > > > I seem to remember a post on a newsgroup about the difficulties > > > > of expressing statements with emotional content in Loglan, and > > > > about how that impoverished communication. > > > > > > > Now, from the standpoint of ordinary communications, I admit that > > > sounds like a defect. But from the standpoint of carrying out an > > > IBIS-style online discussion of an issue, the restriction to > > > emotionally-neutral expression is very likely to be a positive > > > thing, especially in light of... > > > > > > Jack Park wrote: > > > > > > > > From > > http://www.css.sfu.ca/update/vol6/6.3-trouble-in-paradise.html > > > > > > > > "Without facial expressions, voice intonations, or > > > > gestures, relationships can be strange; jokes and irony can lead > > to > > > > misunderstandings. The distancing safety of the medium can promote > > > > casual inflammatory and hurtful remarks. > > > > > > A language that lent itself to more dispassionate analysis might > > > be exactly the ticket to counter-balance the effects of distance > > > on communication! > > > > > > > > > Community email addresses: > > > Post message: unrev-II@onelist.com > > > Subscribe: unrev-II-subscribe@onelist.com > > > Unsubscribe: unrev-II-unsubscribe@onelist.com > > > List owner: unrev-II-owner@onelist.com > > > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > > http://www.onelist.com/community/unrev-II > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > [Image] > > > > > > Community email addresses: > > Post message: unrev-II@onelist.com > > Subscribe: unrev-II-subscribe@onelist.com > > Unsubscribe: unrev-II-unsubscribe@onelist.com > > List owner: unrev-II-owner@onelist.com > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > http://www.onelist.com/community/unrev-II > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > Community email addresses: > Post message: unrev-II@onelist.com > Subscribe: unrev-II-subscribe@onelist.com > Unsubscribe: unrev-II-unsubscribe@onelist.com > List owner: unrev-II-owner@onelist.com > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www.onelist.com/community/unrev-II > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >

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