I just had an illustration of what I was saying in my earlier post. I was
helping my two sons ages 6 and 4 to clean up their room tonight when they
started teasing me. I didn't pay attention to it until the elder said to the
younger, "we'd better stop teasing Dad. We need him to help us clean the
room." It seems like a very selfish way of looking at things but it means
that when we realize that we need the other party, we cannot annoy them
anymore, or at least not too much.
-----Original Message-----
From: Henry K van Eyken [mailto:vaneyken@sympatico.ca]
Sent: jeudi, 13. septembre 2001 14:27
To: unrev-II@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: OFFTOPIC:Re: [unrev-II] Fwd: Re: [PORT-L] Comments On
Terrorist Attacks
Good post, Gil. We, individual members of Mankind, belong to a variety of
social circles, each circle enclosing a commonality of interests giving
cause to co-operation. A number of these circles wholly fit into a larger
circle. There are other circles that intersect with one another, a condition
that leads to conflicting allegiances ("Do I testify in court against a
family member?"). Still other circles lie wholly apart: they are separated
by a sea of indifference, lack of mutual comprehension. Commerce has an
interesting way of segragating social circles: don't do business with family
members.
All our circles fit within one big circle within which we share vital
common interests. Unfortunately, that circle is so huge, we lose sight if
it. We simply don't sense that we ought to co-operate in the preservation of
Mother Earth and her resources. Ah, we may know it intellectually, but we
don't grasp it spiritually. We foul the air and the water and take from her
resources out of sight of fellow Earthlings, like stealing from the cookie
jar when mother isn't looking.
Our spirituality is developed from the moment life begins, typically
within the family circle and within close community. Rankings of sympathies,
indifferences, antipathies - hatreds even - are formed that later become
hard to change. Throughout life we may learn to know better, but our early
pasts have already taken control. "More than we realize," says Doug, "are we
controlled by our paradigms."
Co-evolution across the globe can only come from increasing the
commonality of upbringing, of values education from the cradle up. Means for
comunication is a key factor, and more so is just what we communicate and do
so by deeds more than by words.
Working along the lines of Doug's thinking holds promise, but it will take
generations of sustained effort before we see a difference, to get away from
how we are set apart from birth..
Here is hoping there is still time.
Henry
Gil Regev wrote:
Doug's vision also rests on the principle of co-evolution of humans and
technology.In the last couple of hundred years technology has been evolving
much faster than humans have.This partly explains why the last century was
the bloodiest in human history and, since we're saying that technology
evolution is accelerating, who knows what the present century is going to
be.Also, what we have seen Tuesday can be somewhat explained as the
non-co-evolution of two cultures (I'm not doing any assumption on what the
second culture is). I think that bonds of trust between cultures need a
co-evolution of these cultures. Communication can be used to serve the
purpose of co-evolution but it is not enough in itself because communication
can be negative as in Tuesday's "message". Co-evolution probably implies
collaboration which means that there is some shared objective. This notion
of shared objective is missing from communication which can be used to serve
the objective of one of the parties instead of the whole. When we have
common objectives we can not eliminate the other party or make it suffer
because it is a partner. So maybe a good question is, can we agree on common
objectives?Gil
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Park [mailto:jackpark@thinkalong.com]
Sent: mercredi, 12. septembre 2001 21:59
To: unrev-II@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: OFFTOPIC:Re: [unrev-II] Fwd: Re: [PORT-L] Comments On
Terrorist Attacks
Peter,
Your post responds precisely to the vision I had when I forwarded the
PORT
discussion; you have just outlined the primary reason that I take
interest
in promoting the values espoused in Douglas Engelbart's vision: those
values are would promote the kinds of communication necessary to form
the
bonds of trust you outline.
Jack
At 08:30 PM 9/12/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>My last post on this topic, because it [the atrocity] is so far
removed from
>the unrev feelgood factor.
>
>Yes, it was an attack on symbols, with symbolic significance.
>Yes, it has deep and far reaching meaning because so much of what the
U.S.
>is,
>is iconography.
>The terrorists struck at those U.S. values. No less.
>It was iconoclastic.
>
>But underlying that is pure horror; a horror that is beyond icons,
that has
>only simple disgusting truth to it, that betrays facades, ferociously
>exposes core human values, and unites all compassionate men in
confrontation
>with the blunt reality of the cold, fractured corpse.
>
>That the perpertrators would inflict this on the U.S. says to my mind
that
>they have seen this before, and that they (for reasons they clearly
believe
>intensely) see the U.S. as having been the root cause of that for
them.
>(Whether the U.S. really was or not doesn't matter at this juncture,
only
>that the mesh of symbolism is traced back to that origin for the
>perpertrators; for that too is part of mesh.)
>
>As I see it, it's an attack that says quite clearly, "Your values are
wrong,
>in their aftermath we saw the truth, and now we return it all to
you."
>
>One must also understand that many of the mores that the U.S. has
>promulgated so forcefully in recent decades overhaul centuries-old
values of
>great sophistication in different cultures.
>And even I am inclined to suggest that many new American media values
are
>shallow, fickle, trite and debasing, with no respect for awesome
histories.
>
>It is certain that the attack was wrong, because it took human life.
>
>But it is also certain that the picture that America painted of
itself led
>the attackers there, however mistaken they perhaps were.
>
>That countries refused to be policed by the 'Western Democratic
Alliance' is
>no surprise to me.
>They believe the 'policemen' are corrupt (and again is that because
of a
>self-portrait we painted?). It won't do any good to try overcoming
that by
>force, verbal or physical.
>What is needed is the grounds for the trust that enables great
friendships
>and collaborations -- genuine respect, compassion, love, and true
>generosity.
>
>Peter
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jack Park" <jackpark@thinkalong.com>
>To: <unrev-II@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:29 PM
>Subject: [unrev-II] Fwd: Re: [PORT-L] Comments On Terrorist Attacks
>
>
>On the PORT email list (I am currently unable to find the archives,
so I'll
>quote a bit here), Peter Becker wrote (in part):
>"In my opinion the chain of causality starts in the States. Nothing
can
>be an excuse for what has happened but I fear that what has happened
>will be an excuse for what might come now, if the States choose to
>answer terror with more terror, not even noticing that they might be
the
>ones who started all this. Calling the Pentagon "a symbol of
America's
>ability and determination to project and defend democratic values"
([2])
>is something that would be funny if it wouldn't be that serious."
>
>I responded with:
>"I am wondering how the wizards of Peircian thinking actually cast
today's
>events. For me, it is perhaps an overly simple notion to lay the
beginning
>of the causal chain on the US. "
>
>Cliff Joslyn followed:
>"Of course it is.
>My thinking is as much cybernetic as semiotic, and what that tells
you
>is that no matter how good or true or accurate, casuality is but one
>possible model constructed by us, the subjects, to explain our
>world. It's not a "chain" of causality, but a multi-facetted web of
>interacting linear and cyclic network components, which moreover have
>a temporal horizon as arbitrarily far back into the past as one cares
>to draws one's boundaries. Therefore, WHERE one draws one's
boundaries
>(e.g. the cockpit; the terrorist operatives; Bin-Laden (or whomever
it
>actually is); Saudi Arabian or Iraqui or Iranian policy since 1985;
>the Taliban; Israeli policy since 1995, or since 1967, or since 1945;
>the Soviet Afghan invasion; US policy since 1991 or since 1967 or
>since 1945; the fall of the Ottoman empire following WW I; British
>colonial history since 1850; the Crusades; Mohammed; Jesus; Moses; or
>God for making the distribution of oil and people and temperate land
>masses unequal across the planet or setting the melting point of
steel
>and the boiling point of Aviation A fuel) says SO MUCH MORE about
>one's OWN perspective than about any OBJECTIVE truth of "causality".
>So, Mr. Becker, while (despite working in the belly of the US
>military-industrial complex) I'm the first to criticize my government
>and my society for its arrogance and ruthlessness and evil, please
try
>to get some perspective on what you're saying. For better or worse,
on
>the order of 5,000, and perhaps as many as 10,000 or even 20,000,
>Americans are tonight the victims of the greatest terrorist attack in
>history, and the entire world is reeling. While certainly the overall
>socio-political context, and America's role in that, is relevant, no
>single, narrow historical analysis or fact can explain this, let
alone
>justify it."
>
>Here is what follows. I post this because I believe there is merit
in
>finding ways to look at information flow with an eye biased by the
thinking
>of C.S. Peirce.
>
> >X-Sender: "Jon Awbrey" <jawbrey@mail.oakland.edu>
> >
> >¤~~~~~~~~~¤~~~~~~~~~¤~~~~~~~~~¤~~~~~~~~~¤~~~~~~~~~¤
> >
> >Susan Awbrey wrote (SA):
> >Cliff Joslyn wrote (CJ):
> >Bob Rosenberg wrote (BR):
> >
> >SA: What the terrorists don't understand is that
> > the meaning goes far deeper than its symbols.
> >
> >CJ: I agree: this is where semiotics can help us, understanding
these as
> > acts of COMMUNICATION. In that way, the terrorists are
committing a
> > referential fallacy, mistaking the symbol for the referrent,
the map
> > for the territory, the token for the sign function. Note that
not
> > just the buildings are symbols; from the terrorists
perspective,
> > the dead innocents also serve only as sign-vehicles, not as
humans.
> > Indeed, from Bin-Laden's (or whomever it really is)
perspective,
> > his own OPERATIVES are symbols. That's what martyrdom is,
> > elevating a person to the level of a symbol.
> >
> >BR: A few years after Perry opened Japan to the West in 1853, some
> >southern lords
> > adopted the slogan, "Restore the emperor and sweep out the
>barbarians."
> > Samauri killed a number of merchants, burned their shops, and
so on.
> > Rebelled against the larger forces of Westernization, which
they could
> > not put their hands on, by destroying the people and
structures that
> > symbolized it. They restored the emperor (the Meiji
Restoration)
> > in a nominal way -- the Westernization obviously did not stop.
> >
> >BR: Does this sound familiar? I have a funny feeling
> > there are a few other similar examples in history.
> >
> >In the spirit of examining self and other in the same image,
> >Friend U and Enemy X in the same frame, we might return to
> >Max Weber's 'Protestant Ethic & the Spirit of Capitalism' --
> >he was not especially picking on Puritans and Capitalists
> >but died before he could complete his survey of worldviews,
> >economic, political, religious, whatever -- one of the most
> >crucial points of what he noticed being the way that abstract
> >symbols, detached from their humane context, can operate like
> >viruses, parasitically living off and often turning against the
> >substantial embodiments and the flowing lifeblood of meaning that
> >served as their initial host, now a hulk to be cast away. I think
> >that understanding the dynamics of this malfeasant conversion
process
> >might be a useful bit of knowledge in these times.
> >
> >Jon Awbrey
> >
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