Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02]
Hi John, (01)
Good to hear from you. I hope my initial characterisation of WWDN wasn't too far
wide of the mark. (02)
I sent my request to the email address on the website info@wwdemocracy.org.
Perhaps someone else picks that one up(?). (03)
Cheers,
--
Peter (04)
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Turnbull" <jt@wwdemocracy.org>
To: <ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] (05)
> Dear Bootstrappers,
>
> I've been following this list for a few months now, so I am very
> encouraged - thrilled, in fact - to see that the WWDN has stirred up so
> much interest.
> Collaboration with groups such as yours is a major priority for us.
>
> Various questions/concerns have been raised in the postings so far. I
> won't be able to address them over the weekend, but will come back to
> you early next week.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Turnbull
> Network Associate, World Wide Democracy Network.
>
> PS - Peter, for some reason I haven't received your request to become a
> co-learner yet, but I will add you to our list.
>
>
> Henry K van Eyken wrote:
>
> >Peter.
> >
> >Thanks for coming through with your quick evaluation.
> >
> >I am a little surprised by your their tech-phobia. Quoting the writer, John
> >Turnbull, "We will also be migrating to the Linux
> >operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN's open-source
approach."
> >
> >They talk about wishing to change from:
> >
> >Government
> >OF - the people
> >BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals
> >FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational corporate
capitalism
> >
> >To:
> >
> >Government
> >OF - the people
> >BY - thinking, acting and learning together
> >FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies
> >
> >It is the "BY" part in which we may play a positive role. As for the "FOR"
part,
> >that scares me a little because of a slight odor of political propaganda.
Myself, I
> >like to stay clear of left-right categorization - although anything one says
or
> >writes is immediately placed in either of these trays. So, with that risk, it
seems
> >to me personally that "transnational capitalism" (I deliberately left out the
word
> >"corporate") is at once a motor for growth (the capitalism part) and a slaker
of
> >certain kinds of global barriers. I am also worried about that word
"sustainable,"
> >which was an invention much promoted to foster (especially India's)
participation
> >in the Rio summit on the environment. Capitalism needs a lot of fine-tuning
whereas
> >"growth" a clearer definition of what kind of growth in what kind of
circumstance.
> >But, human nature being what it is, removing capitalism leaves little to
sustain
> >mass incentive. Being just is good for Sundays, but hardly carries us through
the
> >week. Besides, that word like "just" means all sorts of things to different
people
> >as apparent, for example, by the changing juxtaposition of poor-vs-rich to a
> >media-fanned Arabic-vs-Western clash. At any rate, for a group of people to
> >co-operatively think about these matters and do so IN A PRODUCTIVE WAY is
good. (If
> >not done in a productive way, all the talk will only create even more
discontent.)
> >
> >Maybe we should put the comments on on our own forum to groups such as the
WWDN. In
> >the meantime, your signing up as a learner is a good step. I appreciate that.
> >
> >Like to hear from some others.
> >
> >Henry
> >
> >
> >Peter Jones wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>I have attempted to sign up as a 'co-learner' with the WWDN in order to find
out
> >>more.
> >>They seem nascent.
> >>Reading the material on their website they certainly don't have the same
type of
> >>Northern hemisphere PhDs adorning their web pages as at globalagoras (which
> >>might not be a bad thing), and their approach to leadership seems much more
like
> >>concerted facilitation of activation of public participation programs with
the
> >>agenda subsequently to be set and changed largely by the public concerned.
> >>That does require that political leaders committed to the cause gain the
> >>necessary leverage to set things rolling though.
> >>
> >>Their key example involves Brazilian cities where pro-public-participation,
> >>pro-labour groups have gained significant standing, and where the public
> >>participants may or may not be high-tech (they make no mention of any
technology
> >>beyond legwork). In fact, and this looks to me like a crucial point, in some
> >>respects their whole ideal is geared towards avoiding reliance on the
high-tech,
> >>armchair politics of the nerd society (possibly of necessity) in favour of
> >>direct social contact as the means to engendering positive community values
more
> >>firmly.
> >>
> >>I think there might be opportunities for bootstrap-type tools in that mix
though
> >>(on the assumption that the Brazilians don't already have their own - which
they
> >>might, as they seem pretty fired up).
> >>
> >>--
> >>Peter
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Henry K van Eyken" <vaneyken@sympatico.ca>
> >>To: <ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org>
> >>Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:25 AM
> >>Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter
02]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Eric.
> >>>
> >>>They (World Wide Democracy Network) have quite a bit of documentation to
wade
> >>>through, but what I am gathering is that they are basically a
> >>>discussion/learning group, but one bold enough to look at alternative
aspects
> >>>within democratic structures. From our point of view - certainly
Fleabyte's -
> >>>
> >>>
> >>a
> >>
> >>
> >>>principal requirement is informed participation, something we seek to
> >>>
> >>>
> >>facilitate
> >>
> >>
> >>>by digital augmentation, especially of the individual by providing means
for
> >>>becoming a better informed and, hence, better judging citizen.
> >>>Bootstrap/Engelbart perceives of a digital augmentation of the co-operative
> >>>aspect, i.e. informed citizens tackling problems and thereby enhancing the
> >>>
> >>>
> >>WWDN
> >>
> >>
> >>>process of critically evaluating and, where found necessary, reshaping
> >>>
> >>>
> >>important
> >>
> >>
> >>>aspects of democratic processes and structures. Here I see the
complementary
> >>>aspect.
> >>>
> >>>Question is, do we have - on our forums to begin with - the oomph for
> >>>effectively doing our bit in this complementarity? How would we handle
> >>>
> >>>
> >>things?
> >>
> >>
> >>>Clearly, we have to move beyond chatting. We need a reasonably firmly
> >>>
> >>>
> >>supported
> >>
> >>
> >>>agenda. Some elements of strength are there, notably the Nexist-centered
> >>>
> >>>
> >>effort
> >>
> >>
> >>>and, hopefully, the Alliance-forming effort, Maybe that latter effort might
be
> >>>molded toward the kind of NIC forming among like-minded institutions. It
may
> >>>
> >>>
> >>be
> >>
> >>
> >>>from that NIC that a credible leadership comes forward that can also go
after
> >>>the kind of financing you talked about.
> >>>
> >>>Incidentally, there seems to be some leadership potential in the Global
Agora.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>I
> >>
> >>
> >>>do not know what strength there is in the WWDN. Maybe Peter Jones, with his
> >>>
> >>>
> >>eyes
> >>
> >>
> >>>right in the U.K., could find out more and enlighten us here.
> >>>
> >>>Henry
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Henry
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Eric Armstrong wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Yup. Exactly what I thought of when I saw your proposal.
> >>>>
> >>>>If we had a proposal, and could sign up a few such
> >>>>organizations as interested in it, that might well make the
> >>>>project something the U.N. would want to sponsor, and that
> >>>>individual countries might want to contribute to, as well.
> >>>>
> >>>>Lord knows, the goals are laudable enough.
> >>>>
> >>>>(Note: That's something that needs confirming. Unfortunately,
> >>>>one does have to be careful of organizations with high-sounding
> >>>>political ideals...)
> >>>>
> >>>>Henry K van Eyken wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Eric.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Although seemingly somewhat different than what Doug has in mind, it does
> >>>>>have a bit of a NIC aspect to it as well, hasn't it?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Henry
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Eric Armstrong wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Fascinating concept. If we had a project, I'd rate this a high
> >>>>>>priority, if only to gather use cases, motivation, and an
> >>>>>>eventual testing ground for the project.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Henry K van Eyken wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what manner
> >>>>>>>-ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed,
> >>>>>>>London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide Democracy
> >>>>>>>Network,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>www.wwdemocracy.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan -
> >>>>>>>otherwise
> >>>>>>>I wouldn't even consider bringing this up. I do believe it a good
> >>>>>>>thing
> >>>>>>>for small, grassroot organizations to team up.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>How well are the principals of this organization known in the U.K. and
> >>>>>>>internationally, etc.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>You may be interested that from the Fleabyte end we are in touch with
> >>>>>>>an
> >>>>>>>organization called Global Agoras,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>http://www.globalagoras.org/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>The development is slow here because of "understaffing." Might some
> >>>>>>>people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look at
> >>>>>>>the
> >>>>>>>issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded
> >>>>>>>organizations in a way that they become complementary. Etc.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Henry
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Subject: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02
> >>>>>>>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:12:06 +0100
> >>>>>>>From: John Turnbull <jt@wwdemocracy.org>
> >>>>>>>To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> >>>>>>>WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>WELCOME!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>CONTENTS
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1. Introduction
> >>>>>>> 2. WWDN news
> >>>>>>> 3. Getting the WWDN up and running
> >>>>>>> 4. WWDN?s WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN?s proposal to run
> >>>>>>> a series of workshops (entitled ?Liberating Democratic Systems?)
> >>>>>>> at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January
> >>>>>>> 2003).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>1. INTRODUCTION
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has been
> >>>>>>>set up to link people in a process of mutual learning.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent global
> >>>>>>>problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation and
> >>>>>>>societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the existing
> >>>>>>>?democratic? regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a
> >>>>>>>totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth
> >>>>>>>coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to
> >>>>>>>rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build a
> >>>>>>>just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we
> >>>>>>>currently have:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Government
> >>>>>>>OF - the people
> >>>>>>>BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals
> >>>>>>>FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational
> >>>>>>>corporate capitalism
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>To:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Government
> >>>>>>>OF - the people
> >>>>>>>BY - thinking, acting and learning together
> >>>>>>>FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political processes
> >>>>>>>the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory developed
> >>>>>>>in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing
> >>>>>>>about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is
> >>>>>>>essentially one of mutual learning.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN, please
> >>>>>>>see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 .
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online discussions
> >>>>>>>(available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include your
> >>>>>>>name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address,
> >>>>>>>occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.)
> >>>>>>>Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>2. WWDN NEWS
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Co-learners
> >>>>>>>55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN?s main
> >>>>>>>aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations
> >>>>>>>interested in developing viable strategies for political change at all
> >>>>>>>levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please press
> >>>>>>>?reply? (making sure not to reply to all) and type ?co-learner? in the
> >>>>>>>subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org .
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Network Associate
> >>>>>>>John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN.
> >>>>>>>Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John will
> >>>>>>>be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network,
> >>>>>>>including managing the contacts database, moderating the discussion
> >>>>>>>forum and editing the quarterly newsletter.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want the
> >>>>>>>Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical
> >>>>>>>issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far, we
> >>>>>>>have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling the
> >>>>>>>WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux
> >>>>>>>operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN?s open-source
> >>>>>>>approach.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>The response to our request for participants has been very
> >>>>>>>encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of backgrounds,
> >>>>>>>including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However, this
> >>>>>>>kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open to
> >>>>>>>anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for
> >>>>>>>political change and working towards a more just and sustainable
> >>>>>>>future. (See above for instructions on registering).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as we
> >>>>>>>can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many
> >>>>>>>languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking
> >>>>>>>translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to hear
> >>>>>>>from you.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org )
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM -
> >>>>>>>?LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are
> >>>>>>>hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The
> >>>>>>>proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will be
> >>>>>>>accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the direction
> >>>>>>>the WWDN is taking.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Summary
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held in
> >>>>>>>Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning poet
> >>>>>>>Jose Saramago issued a challenge:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>"Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to ecology,
> >>>>>>>from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste treatment
> >>>>>>>to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed, as
> >>>>>>>if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by nature
> >>>>>>>until the end of time.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>"Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or
> >>>>>>>indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster worldwide
> >>>>>>>debate on democracy and the causes of its decline?"
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the
> >>>>>>>in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre in
> >>>>>>>January 2003, responds to Saramago?s challenge through a programme of
> >>>>>>>co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and define:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> * precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are
> >>>>>>> defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and
> >>>>>>> * what are the essential components of an alternative democratic
> >>>>>>> system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of the
> >>>>>>> whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is the
> >>>>>>> nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and
> >>>>>>> people power? And how, in practical terms, can such democracies
> >>>>>>> be created?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related issues,
> >>>>>>>WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking
> >>>>>>>dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development of
> >>>>>>>coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a practical
> >>>>>>>dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget
> >>>>>>>processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and
> >>>>>>>especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to Jose
> >>>>>>>Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue aimed
> >>>>>>>at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to
> >>>>>>>remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>"Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men, on
> >>>>>>>the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the problems of
> >>>>>>>their country, their continent, their world, their work, the problems
> >>>>>>>of democracy itself."
> >>>>>>>(Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao
> >>>>>>>Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and Readers
> >>>>>>>Co-operative1974.)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org (the
> >>>>>>>'2002 Programme' section).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either because
> >>>>>>>you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we believe
> >>>>>>>you would be interested in the WWDN's work.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply to
> >>>>>>>this message with 'STOP' in the subject field.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this newsletter.
> >>>>>>>Please let us know if this happens.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> (06)