Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02]
OK, Peter. :) (01)
I guess we can all go along with that! (02)
Henry (03)
Peter Jones wrote: (04)
> Henry,
>
> I was not suggesting that WWDN were tech-phobic in themselves.
> Merely that the processes they are dealing with require appropriate technology -
> which might in some cases mean no high-technology whatsoever.
>
> I do sometimes think that there is a bit of a tech overkill attitude lurking at
> the back of some of what is said on these lists.
> Not everything needs a computer inserted into the equation in order to augment
> the well-being of people.
>
> Note that Doug wrote Augmenting Human *Intellect* - not e.g. Augmenting Human
> Feeding Habits or Mating Patterns.
> The day someone gives me a smart-spoon that tells me how to eat my pudding...
> will be grim day indeed.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Peter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Henry K van Eyken" <vaneyken@sympatico.ca>
> To: <ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 12:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02]
>
> > Peter.
> >
> > Thanks for coming through with your quick evaluation.
> >
> > I am a little surprised by your their tech-phobia. Quoting the writer, John
> > Turnbull, "We will also be migrating to the Linux
> > operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN's open-source
> approach."
> >
> > They talk about wishing to change from:
> >
> > Government
> > OF - the people
> > BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals
> > FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational corporate
> capitalism
> >
> > To:
> >
> > Government
> > OF - the people
> > BY - thinking, acting and learning together
> > FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies
> >
> > It is the "BY" part in which we may play a positive role. As for the "FOR"
> part,
> > that scares me a little because of a slight odor of political propaganda.
> Myself, I
> > like to stay clear of left-right categorization - although anything one says
> or
> > writes is immediately placed in either of these trays. So, with that risk, it
> seems
> > to me personally that "transnational capitalism" (I deliberately left out the
> word
> > "corporate") is at once a motor for growth (the capitalism part) and a slaker
> of
> > certain kinds of global barriers. I am also worried about that word
> "sustainable,"
> > which was an invention much promoted to foster (especially India's)
> participation
> > in the Rio summit on the environment. Capitalism needs a lot of fine-tuning
> whereas
> > "growth" a clearer definition of what kind of growth in what kind of
> circumstance.
> > But, human nature being what it is, removing capitalism leaves little to
> sustain
> > mass incentive. Being just is good for Sundays, but hardly carries us through
> the
> > week. Besides, that word like "just" means all sorts of things to different
> people
> > as apparent, for example, by the changing juxtaposition of poor-vs-rich to a
> > media-fanned Arabic-vs-Western clash. At any rate, for a group of people to
> > co-operatively think about these matters and do so IN A PRODUCTIVE WAY is
> good. (If
> > not done in a productive way, all the talk will only create even more
> discontent.)
> >
> > Maybe we should put the comments on on our own forum to groups such as the
> WWDN. In
> > the meantime, your signing up as a learner is a good step. I appreciate that.
> >
> > Like to hear from some others.
> >
> > Henry
> >
> >
> > Peter Jones wrote:
> >
> > > I have attempted to sign up as a 'co-learner' with the WWDN in order to find
> out
> > > more.
> > > They seem nascent.
> > > Reading the material on their website they certainly don't have the same
> type of
> > > Northern hemisphere PhDs adorning their web pages as at globalagoras (which
> > > might not be a bad thing), and their approach to leadership seems much more
> like
> > > concerted facilitation of activation of public participation programs with
> the
> > > agenda subsequently to be set and changed largely by the public concerned.
> > > That does require that political leaders committed to the cause gain the
> > > necessary leverage to set things rolling though.
> > >
> > > Their key example involves Brazilian cities where pro-public-participation,
> > > pro-labour groups have gained significant standing, and where the public
> > > participants may or may not be high-tech (they make no mention of any
> technology
> > > beyond legwork). In fact, and this looks to me like a crucial point, in some
> > > respects their whole ideal is geared towards avoiding reliance on the
> high-tech,
> > > armchair politics of the nerd society (possibly of necessity) in favour of
> > > direct social contact as the means to engendering positive community values
> more
> > > firmly.
> > >
> > > I think there might be opportunities for bootstrap-type tools in that mix
> though
> > > (on the assumption that the Brazilians don't already have their own - which
> they
> > > might, as they seem pretty fired up).
> > >
> > > --
> > > Peter
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Henry K van Eyken" <vaneyken@sympatico.ca>
> > > To: <ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org>
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:25 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter
> 02]
> > >
> > > > Eric.
> > > >
> > > > They (World Wide Democracy Network) have quite a bit of documentation to
> wade
> > > > through, but what I am gathering is that they are basically a
> > > > discussion/learning group, but one bold enough to look at alternative
> aspects
> > > > within democratic structures. From our point of view - certainly
> Fleabyte's -
> > > a
> > > > principal requirement is informed participation, something we seek to
> > > facilitate
> > > > by digital augmentation, especially of the individual by providing means
> for
> > > > becoming a better informed and, hence, better judging citizen.
> > > > Bootstrap/Engelbart perceives of a digital augmentation of the
> co-operative
> > > > aspect, i.e. informed citizens tackling problems and thereby enhancing the
> > > WWDN
> > > > process of critically evaluating and, where found necessary, reshaping
> > > important
> > > > aspects of democratic processes and structures. Here I see the
> complementary
> > > > aspect.
> > > >
> > > > Question is, do we have - on our forums to begin with - the oomph for
> > > > effectively doing our bit in this complementarity? How would we handle
> > > things?
> > > > Clearly, we have to move beyond chatting. We need a reasonably firmly
> > > supported
> > > > agenda. Some elements of strength are there, notably the Nexist-centered
> > > effort
> > > > and, hopefully, the Alliance-forming effort, Maybe that latter effort
> might be
> > > > molded toward the kind of NIC forming among like-minded institutions. It
> may
> > > be
> > > > from that NIC that a credible leadership comes forward that can also go
> after
> > > > the kind of financing you talked about.
> > > >
> > > > Incidentally, there seems to be some leadership potential in the Global
> Agora.
> > > I
> > > > do not know what strength there is in the WWDN. Maybe Peter Jones, with
> his
> > > eyes
> > > > right in the U.K., could find out more and enlighten us here.
> > > >
> > > > Henry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Henry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Eric Armstrong wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yup. Exactly what I thought of when I saw your proposal.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we had a proposal, and could sign up a few such
> > > > > organizations as interested in it, that might well make the
> > > > > project something the U.N. would want to sponsor, and that
> > > > > individual countries might want to contribute to, as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lord knows, the goals are laudable enough.
> > > > >
> > > > > (Note: That's something that needs confirming. Unfortunately,
> > > > > one does have to be careful of organizations with high-sounding
> > > > > political ideals...)
> > > > >
> > > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Eric.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Although seemingly somewhat different than what Doug has in mind, it
> does
> > > > > > have a bit of a NIC aspect to it as well, hasn't it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Henry
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Eric Armstrong wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Fascinating concept. If we had a project, I'd rate this a high
> > > > > > > priority, if only to gather use cases, motivation, and an
> > > > > > > eventual testing ground for the project.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what
> manner
> > > > > > > > -ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed,
> > > > > > > > London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide
> Democracy
> > > > > > > > Network,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > www.wwdemocracy.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan -
> > > > > > > > otherwise
> > > > > > > > I wouldn't even consider bringing this up. I do believe it a good
> > > > > > > > thing
> > > > > > > > for small, grassroot organizations to team up.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How well are the principals of this organization known in the U.K.
> and
> > > > > > > > internationally, etc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You may be interested that from the Fleabyte end we are in touch
> with
> > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > organization called Global Agoras,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > http://www.globalagoras.org/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The development is slow here because of "understaffing." Might
> some
> > > > > > > > people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look
> at
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded
> > > > > > > > organizations in a way that they become complementary. Etc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Henry
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Subject: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02
> > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:12:06 +0100
> > > > > > > > From: John Turnbull <jt@wwdemocracy.org>
> > > > > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> > > > > > > > WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > WELCOME!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > CONTENTS
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1. Introduction
> > > > > > > > 2. WWDN news
> > > > > > > > 3. Getting the WWDN up and running
> > > > > > > > 4. WWDN?s WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN?s proposal to
> run
> > > > > > > > a series of workshops (entitled ?Liberating Democratic
> Systems?)
> > > > > > > > at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January
> > > > > > > > 2003).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1. INTRODUCTION
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has
> been
> > > > > > > > set up to link people in a process of mutual learning.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent
> global
> > > > > > > > problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation
> and
> > > > > > > > societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the
> existing
> > > > > > > > ?democratic? regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a
> > > > > > > > totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth
> > > > > > > > coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to
> > > > > > > > rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build
> a
> > > > > > > > just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we
> > > > > > > > currently have:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Government
> > > > > > > > OF - the people
> > > > > > > > BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals
> > > > > > > > FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational
> > > > > > > > corporate capitalism
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Government
> > > > > > > > OF - the people
> > > > > > > > BY - thinking, acting and learning together
> > > > > > > > FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political
> processes
> > > > > > > > the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory
> developed
> > > > > > > > in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing
> > > > > > > > about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is
> > > > > > > > essentially one of mutual learning.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN,
> please
> > > > > > > > see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 .
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online
> discussions
> > > > > > > > (available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include
> your
> > > > > > > > name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address,
> > > > > > > > occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.)
> > > > > > > > Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2. WWDN NEWS
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Co-learners
> > > > > > > > 55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN?s
> main
> > > > > > > > aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations
> > > > > > > > interested in developing viable strategies for political change at
> all
> > > > > > > > levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please
> press
> > > > > > > > ?reply? (making sure not to reply to all) and type ?co-learner? in
> the
> > > > > > > > subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org .
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Network Associate
> > > > > > > > John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN.
> > > > > > > > Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John
> will
> > > > > > > > be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network,
> > > > > > > > including managing the contacts database, moderating the
> discussion
> > > > > > > > forum and editing the quarterly newsletter.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want
> the
> > > > > > > > Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical
> > > > > > > > issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far,
> we
> > > > > > > > have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling
> the
> > > > > > > > WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux
> > > > > > > > operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN?s
> open-source
> > > > > > > > approach.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The response to our request for participants has been very
> > > > > > > > encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of
> backgrounds,
> > > > > > > > including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However,
> this
> > > > > > > > kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open
> to
> > > > > > > > anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for
> > > > > > > > political change and working towards a more just and sustainable
> > > > > > > > future. (See above for instructions on registering).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as
> we
> > > > > > > > can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many
> > > > > > > > languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking
> > > > > > > > translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to
> hear
> > > > > > > > from you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org )
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM -
> > > > > > > > ?LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are
> > > > > > > > hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The
> > > > > > > > proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will
> be
> > > > > > > > accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the
> direction
> > > > > > > > the WWDN is taking.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Summary
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held
> in
> > > > > > > > Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning
> poet
> > > > > > > > Jose Saramago issued a challenge:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to
> ecology,
> > > > > > > > from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste
> treatment
> > > > > > > > to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed,
> as
> > > > > > > > if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by
> nature
> > > > > > > > until the end of time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or
> > > > > > > > indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster
> worldwide
> > > > > > > > debate on democracy and the causes of its decline?"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the
> > > > > > > > in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre
> in
> > > > > > > > January 2003, responds to Saramago?s challenge through a programme
> of
> > > > > > > > co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and
> define:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > * precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are
> > > > > > > > defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and
> > > > > > > > * what are the essential components of an alternative
> democratic
> > > > > > > > system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of
> the
> > > > > > > > whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is
> the
> > > > > > > > nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and
> > > > > > > > people power? And how, in practical terms, can such
> democracies
> > > > > > > > be created?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related
> issues,
> > > > > > > > WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking
> > > > > > > > dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development
> of
> > > > > > > > coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a
> practical
> > > > > > > > dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget
> > > > > > > > processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and
> > > > > > > > especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to
> Jose
> > > > > > > > Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue
> aimed
> > > > > > > > at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to
> > > > > > > > remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men,
> on
> > > > > > > > the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the
> problems of
> > > > > > > > their country, their continent, their world, their work, the
> problems
> > > > > > > > of democracy itself."
> > > > > > > > (Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao
> > > > > > > > Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and
> Readers
> > > > > > > > Co-operative1974.)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org
> (the
> > > > > > > > '2002 Programme' section).
> > > > > > >
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either
> because
> > > > > > > > you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we
> believe
> > > > > > > > you would be interested in the WWDN's work.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply
> to
> > > > > > > > this message with 'STOP' in the subject field.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this
> newsletter.
> > > > > > > > Please let us know if this happens.
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > (05)